Why do people have sympathy for murderers and child abusers?

[Sweetchocolatecandy]

I’ve seen a few comments recently on threads about child abuse (specifically little Arthur) where some posters have said they feel sorry for the likes of murderers such as Tuston as she must have had mental health issues or a rough upbringing herself to make her commit an act like that. Do people really think like this? I suffer from mental health issues but I would never, ever hurt a child and I know people deal with past experiences differently but I think it’s insulting to blame ‘mental health’ for committing abuse and murder.

AIBU?

Why do people have sympathy for murderers and child abusers?

It makes them feel so woke and empathetic.

I personally couldn't care less what childhood they had. Not everyone who has a difficult childhood becomes an abuser. They are not children anymore. They are responsible for their choices and should be judged by them.

My DP suffered the most horrific abuse as a child and he’s managed to grow up without becoming a murderer.

While in some instances issues as children might lead to them committing atrocities as children or young adults, no-one should be falling back on their childhood or on mental illness to excuse their atrocious acts.

I think we can all agree that nobody who murders and tortures someone is mentally normal.But that doesn’t equal them being mentally ill or deserving of sympathy.

Often people who have MH issues are led to feel victimised by the assumption that x or y murderer must be mentally ill, because the assumption seems to be that mental illness equals liable to commit atrocious acts. In the same way if we assume that someone who murders someone must have had a disturbed childhood, so those who have had bad upbringings run the risk of being seen as bad people by virtue of their childhoods.

My DP for instance was told that it’s rather strange that he didn’t grow up with awful behaviours, was told he shouldn’t be in contact with small children because sexual abuse as a child would lead him to become a paedophile as an adult, and that being an abused child equals becoming a criminal as an adult.

People are individuals. If Arthur had become a murderer had he lived to adulthood he would have been no more deserving of sympathy because of his childhood, as an adult, he would have been responsible for the acts he committed as an adult.

People are just trying to understand. I don't believe that people are born evil.

The fact is, developmental trauma can lead to psychopathy. We know developmental trauma causes physical changes in the brain.
The age and stage of brain development that someone experienced trauma can change the affect trauma has on someone. So many factors are involved, which is why two siblings can have the same experiences but turn out so differently.

People who have not experience significant trauma don't tend to end up like Tustin. Something has happened. I don't have sympathy, but no one is born evil.

@sst1234

Because some people go through life making excuses for themselves and others. All bad behaviour has to be mental health related or a result of some trauma of because of upbringing. Personal responsibility is simply not a thing some people. It’s ok as long as others suffer, but the badly behaved must be shown ‘empathy’ at all times. And those not us that do not look for excuse's are simply savages.

This.

You always get stupid do gooders around, absolutely pathetic people as daft as they come, they'd probably forgive these people Even if they did something to their family too, they must be a bit deranged themselves.

I haven't seen anybody use it as an 'excuse'. But if we don't look for explanations for this behaviour then how are we going to prevent it from happening again?

I really don't understand why people get so invested in others reactions to horrible events like this. Unless we personally have power to change the events or similar events in future our reaction is irrelevant, and if we do have the power to make a difference then it's less a question of emoting the right way and more making the right practical decisions.

It's a good, dare I say even beautiful, thing to be able to extend sympathy to anyone, even a people who've done abhorrent things - that level of empathy is the source of a huge amount of art and literature as well as a willingness to try and improve social functioning rather than just round up all the bad people and shoot them.

It's also valuable for society that people have anger toward people who do harm to others especially those that harm the most weak and vulnerable, that anger motives and energises efforts to make changes and take down unjust power structures.

Both reactions have valuable social roles and there's room for both.

wasnt he seen 2 weeks before he died by social workers who decided there wasnt a problem ? so obviously there was funding for that.

@lisaandalan

You always get stupid do gooders around, absolutely pathetic people as daft as they come, they'd probably forgive these people Even if they did something to their family too, they must be a bit deranged themselves.

Are you actually reading what people are saying? It's about prevention. Not forgiveness.

@Mufasa1118 You are brave to post. I can't imagine how it must be to have been bought up in such an awful environment. Somehow it feels even worse that it was your mother rather than a father who was so cruel to you. It's amazing that you are so self aware that you realise that you are nowhere near ok. I real hope things improve for you and that you get the help you need and deserve.

I think we can all agree that nobody who murders and tortures someone is mentally normal.But that doesn’t equal them being mentally ill or deserving of sympathy

Can't you see the contradiction in this statement?

If 'nobody who murders and tortures someone is mentally normal', then what else are they but 'abnormal'???

It needs to be driven home that 'mental illness' and personality disorder are not one and the same thing. We're talking about abnormal, atypical, damaged, an aberrant personalities here, not just people who have a mental illness.

I think it’s a grey area between mental health and someone just being pure evil

It really is not, because there is absolutely no such thing as 'evil'.

Actions and behaviours can reasonably be described as 'evil', and everyone will understand what is meant by that statement, but 'evil' is not some sort of entity that compels people to do things or can act of it's own accord.

Psychopaths are certainly capable of actions that could rightfully be described as 'evil', but these people are not what they are because of evil. That's the same sort of nonsense as claiming something is down to witchcraft, fairies, or magic. It's risible.

Very wise words @Jellycatspyjamas
It is an uncomfortable thing to think about, but the reality is that given their backgrounds, Arthur and a lot of other abused children, had they survived, may well not have grown into very nice adults. Obviously it's not guaranteed - not everyone who abuses was abused or vice versa - but it would hardly be surprising if a child with those kind of experiences grew into a deeply troubled and angry teenager and then adult.
It would be a very cold hearted person who wasn't moved by the plight of Arthur - such a beautiful, angelic looking boy who experienced truly horrific things. But had he survived and become a violent adult would we still care about him then? If we really want to help prevent future cases like this then surely we need to care about and try to understand the perpetrators? That doesn't mean overlooking or justifying their crimes but it's got to be possible to have concern for the individual whilst abhorring their actions.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

Because they (1) they like to pride themselves on being empathetic and (2) they're so open-minded their brains have fallen out.

I’m stealing this 😂

Just because some people are abused and don't go on to hurt people, doesn't mean that we should disregard the fact that other people might do things based on trauma.

There's a mix of nature and nurture, and everyone is affected differently even by similar situations.

All the people on the thread saying they would never do horrendous things like this - of course you wouldn't, and you can't imagine it because your brain is not the same as of someone who would. It's not woke to keep an open mind about things we can't perceive ourselves.

The idea of "some people are just evil" completely minimizes parental responsibility on making sure their kids have the best possible environment to grow up in.

How do you think the 'self' develops? It is complex process that unfolds over 18 or so years in relation to the significant people we grow up with. If you are really interested you could read up on Object Relations. When one introjects (internalises) a rejecting object (for example an abusive, critical, dismissive, cold etc etc parental figure) that 'part' of the person can be triggered in the future and acts out the introjection. People can do this regularly in harmless, subtle ways when others, or even themselves, sense in that moment 'I felt like my mother', 'you sound like your father' etc There is a critical distinction between seeking to understand the wider context and condoning. Until we start learning to ask the right questions these cycles will carry on ad infinitum at great cost to us all.

To find an effective solution to a problem, first you have to understand the problem. Otherwise you will be forever stabbing in the dark, misapplying resources and energy.

Too many people want to apply a knee jerk 'solution' and then sit back and wait until the next time the same thing happens! We need to dig deeper to prevent things happening.

Our prisons are never empty, they are never underused. That will always be the case until we root out the causes of why so many people become criminal, dysfunctional, depraved and abusive people.

Many of us gave birth in the same hospital as these people, many of us went to the same schools, lived in the same towns and shared the same pubs, shops etc. something went very wrong for some us.

Something will go seriously wrong for the babies born in 2021 and 2022. What as a country are we going to do differently to stop this - to intervene? Or a we just going to count more victims and build more prisons?

No matter how awful their own prior circumstances, they lose any prospect of sympathy from me the instant they commit dreadful crimes like this.

They are the very personification of evil. Life should mean life. Lock them up and throw away the key.

'Sympathy for' and 'understanding of' are two very very different things.

Please don't assume abused children will become abusers themselves. I was subjected to sexual abuse and then physical abuse where I was locked in cupboards and tied to my bed as I was getting up in the night. I was also then raped by a babysitter as my mum and step dad would just leave me with anyone so they could have a night out. I've never once felt inclined to inflict this terror on my children. In fact I've probably compensated too much. My girls were always allowed to sleep in my bed if they were scared at night. I've kept them as safe as possible and now doing the same for my dgs. My dd who had one of the most loveliest of upbringings has fallen in with a drug dealer and left her child with us, seeing him sporadically. I will do everything in my power to keep him safe. Tustin chose her victim. Her children enjoyed food and love while Arthur was denied all these as she saw him as a naughty child. Poor boy should have had his care givers falling over backwards to make sure he wasn't suffering from his mother's imprisonment. My dgs is same age as Arthur and struggles with his emotions and has meltdowns but because his parents have let him down and we help him and love him and try and make him feel worthy and safe. Tustin and Hughes had a choice. Though it does seem she convinced herself she was justified when you see the body cam. Yes past experiences shape us but people can become totally different to those that abused them. There's no way on this earth I would want my children or any child to go through what I did as a small person xxx

I personally think dismissing people as ‘evil’ is often a way of excusing their actions.

I noticed this a lot in the wake of the conviction of Wayne Couzens. People falling over themselves to say he’s just one bad apple! Just one evil man! Not all men are like that! Not all police officers are like that! He’d have killed someone anyway!

Yes, he is one evil man. But there are serious questions to be asked about why he offended in the way he did and why he was able to do it. If we just dismiss him as ‘one evil man’ then those questions never get answered.

Which is, of course, exactly why people were falling over themselves to do it.

@AlternativePerspective

My DP suffered the most horrific abuse as a child and he’s managed to grow up without becoming a murderer.

While in some instances issues as children might lead to them committing atrocities as children or young adults, no-one should be falling back on their childhood or on mental illness to excuse their atrocious acts.

I think we can all agree that nobody who murders and tortures someone is mentally normal.But that doesn’t equal them being mentally ill or deserving of sympathy.

Often people who have MH issues are led to feel victimised by the assumption that x or y murderer must be mentally ill, because the assumption seems to be that mental illness equals liable to commit atrocious acts. In the same way if we assume that someone who murders someone must have had a disturbed childhood, so those who have had bad upbringings run the risk of being seen as bad people by virtue of their childhoods.

My DP for instance was told that it’s rather strange that he didn’t grow up with awful behaviours, was told he shouldn’t be in contact with small children because sexual abuse as a child would lead him to become a paedophile as an adult, and that being an abused child equals becoming a criminal as an adult.

People are individuals. If Arthur had become a murderer had he lived to adulthood he would have been no more deserving of sympathy because of his childhood, as an adult, he would have been responsible for the acts he committed as an adult.

no-one should be falling back on their childhood or on mental illness to excuse their atrocious acts. No one is really talking about 'excusing' though.

the assumption seems to be that mental illness equals liable to commit atrocious acts. No one is really saying 'liable to', just that it can contribute.

'If Arthur had become a murderer had he lived to adulthood he would have been no more deserving of sympathy because of his childhood' Again, people aren't really talking about 'sympathy' but about attempting to understand and investigate why, so that we stand a chance of eradicating or at least cutting down on these things happening.

Wayne Couzens. People falling over themselves to say he’s just one bad apple!
Even more egregious was Cressida Dick saying this.

@lisaandalan

You always get stupid do gooders around, absolutely pathetic people as daft as they come, they'd probably forgive these people Even if they did something to their family too, they must be a bit deranged themselves.

This is a profoundly dim post.

Sorry I went off on one! Yes alot of killers etc probably have had dysfunctional upbringing. Not all though was abused, some had over bearing mothers or held a grudge which then spilled over into adult life. Some get their kicks from sadistic tendencies and rather fight it they feed it with what they watch then seek to carry it out in life. Its so different for everyone who commits such wicked acts. Arthur's mother was bought up well and well educated but she then murdered her partner. Some people are narcissistic by nature. It's so complex. I do feel for anyone who have had awful life experiences but then my sympathy stops when they go on to harm others. So Tustin, despite her early life, could regulate herself and only target Arthur. She may have other personality disorders like paranoia or attention seeking but what she decided to do to that poor boy is sickening and she shouldn't be pitied in any way. In my opinion.

Agree with Samcro

Plus some people like being contrary.