Why do people have sympathy for murderers and child abusers?

[Sweetchocolatecandy]

I’ve seen a few comments recently on threads about child abuse (specifically little Arthur) where some posters have said they feel sorry for the likes of murderers such as Tuston as she must have had mental health issues or a rough upbringing herself to make her commit an act like that. Do people really think like this? I suffer from mental health issues but I would never, ever hurt a child and I know people deal with past experiences differently but I think it’s insulting to blame ‘mental health’ for committing abuse and murder.

AIBU?

Because some people go through life making excuses for themselves and others. All bad behaviour has to be mental health related or a result of some trauma of because of upbringing. Personal responsibility is simply not a thing some people. It’s ok as long as others suffer, but the badly behaved must be shown ‘empathy’ at all times. And those not us that do not look for excuse's are simply savages.

Yanbu, these sickos are low lives who deserve to die.

I do think that child abuse psychologically messes people up. Emma Tustin was no doubt abused as a child herself.

I do think being abused as a child makes you more likely to become an abuser.

Yes we still have a choice not to abuse, so it is each individuals responsibility, but I think those who were abused are more likely to repeat patterns

@LoisWilkersonslastnerve

I like to think I can always have a bit of empathy or at least understanding for most people but I just can't with Tustin and Hughes. What happened to Arthur is horrendous.

Me too. Hope they have a miserable existence in prison and rot in hell.

I know many people who have suffered significant trauma and do not go on to abuse and murder people

Which means absolutely nothing, because no two people are the same, and no two identical situations will produce two identical people.

What is certain is that when you look at the childhoods of serial killers, people who abuse and murder children, raging psychopaths and sociopaths, they invariably have some sort of significant dysfunction or trauma in their childhoods.

Just because you grow up in a dysfunctional or abusive environment does not mandate that you will invariably turn out to be a dysfunctional or abusive adult yourself, but it is a recurring and common factor in adults who ARE abusive and dysfunctional.

I was severely abused as a child.

I have not abused a child myself.

This is purely because I make sure that I am never alone with a child.

I hate to say this but When I have seen some children in the past before I have felt an almost overwhelming compulsion to be cruel to them.

It feels like this doesn't even come from me. It feels like the energy of the person who abused me is in me now, and I feel like now I have become abusive.

If you spend 18 years around an abusive person you definitely take on some of their energy/traits.

So I make sure I am never with a child in case I lose control. Does that make me any better than Emma Tustin. Well I know I could never ever hit a child but I know I could possibly be cruel to a child. So that upsets m
There should be more help to those of us who were abused as children so that we don't repeat the same stuff.

I totally agree with AliveAndSleeping.

There may be reasons or explanations for an individual’s behaviour, but they should never be excuses . It is useful to examine how someone came to commit crimes, particularly vile ones, but having “sympathy” leads us down a dangerous path of “Aw, it’s not their fault” and someone must be to blame.

Additionally I agree with a pp who observed that some people are so open-minded their brains have fallen out of their head which does apply to some on here who are keen to “side” with the perpetrator of a crime (eg Manchester bomber - I nearly combusted when a poster said they felt equally sorry for him and his family )

The only people I've met who were devoid of empathy are foster children that were most dreadfully abused and have complex mental and physical health issues. They have shut down the ability to bond with others at a very early age as a self protection mechanism and are considered unsuitable for adoption at preschool ages so will spend their childhood in care. It's truly tragic. Even those who have been adopted (so are less affected by their early childhood abuse or neglect) can have ongoing issues due to their abuse.

If you look at the prison population then 27% of prisoners spent some time in care as a child (to put it another way half of all children in care will end up in prison), 90% have a mental health problem, 29% of the prison population have suffered childhood abuse, 46% came from homes in which they either experienced or witnessed violence, 15% were homeless immediately prior to incarceration and 62% have drug problems. If we don't want crime we need to break the cycle of abuse and declaring someone as 'pure evil' is not helpful, it's abdicating any responsibility to deal with the issue which just means the next generation will repeat the same mistakes.

If the OP is one of the lucky half of children in care who survived the system well enough to go on to form healthy relationships she should be very proud of herself and realise she is exceptional because many people would not have achieved what she has achieved.

I know many people who have suffered significant trauma and do not go on to abuse and murder people

Means nothing. Individual circumstances are just that - individual. We hear often of survivors of rape who go on to thrive in life, others say their lives are ruined. Different things come into play for all of us. Neither response is right, neither is wrong.

So you, OP, think it is wrong for society to want to learn from these crimes. Humans need to be curious and empathetic to progress and avoid repeating wrongs.

If that empathy helps to obtain insights that stop other human beings turning out like that couple, surely it is worth it.

As for your believing yourself smeared because of the reference to mental health, surely there are as many different mental health problems as there are physical health problems.

Because monsters aren’t born, they’re created. And if we just dismiss people as ‘evil’ instead of trying to understand a) what made them the way they are and b) what could have prevented them from doing what they did, then our society will never improve.

Some really interesting posts. I agree with @StoneofDestiny.

I also find it a little depressing that people don't understand how common it is in abusive households to have a 'scapegoat child' who suffers abuse including neglect while the others are treated reasonably or favoured. Cinderella wasn't about the dress.

@Mosbiusdesigns

It's the cycle of abuse isn't it. I don't think what they've done is right obviously but for example Arthur's dad and step-mother, what were their childhoods like for them to think that's OK? What is wrong in them that they would do that? People will also, understandably, never want to think people have done horrific things purely for the enjoyment of it, so we look for the why. Mental health, drugs, abusive childhood, coerced, financially forced/motivated.

Well Hughes brother managed to be a father perfectly fine.

With this case, she had 4 of her own children, whom she never harmed, so why did Arthur, a child that isn’t biologically hers, get murdered by her?

I think it’s a grey area between mental health and someone just being pure evil. I think in this case, if she could manage to never lay a hand or treat her own children like she did Arthur. Then she is just a callous, horrid, evil woman, it has nothing to do with her upbringing or mental health problems.

I do agree with you though OP, that I do get sick of the mental health card getting brought up any time someone commits a crime, of course there are plenty that will of had horrendous upbringings and will cause them to act in a violent manner and we need to understand this to prevent future generations from potentially becoming killers by giving them the help they need to deal with their problems, but I do believe there are some people who are just pure evil and enjoy killing for no other reason than the high/power and control.

I also say this as someone who has had a really shite childhood and suffer with mental health problems, just before anyone jumps on me for saying about the mental health card.

I can feel sorry for someone while abhorring the crimes they’ve committed or disliking the person they are. When I hear if a case like this I feel sorry it ever had to happen.

I think some people (not saying all, and not criticising) get too involved with cases like this. It’s like the not enjoy exactly but get some sort of energy out of being so wrapped up in it. I have an acquaintance who does it every time a case like this comes up, she reads every detail/article of the case and every time you see her she has to tell you how heartbroken she is for ‘poor little Arthur’ and how she hopes ‘those bastards rot in hell’ and what she’d do to them if she got her hands on them etc etc etc.

But when I suggest she might want to volunteer with me, working with foster children? No she doesn’t want to. When I mention that I buy gifts for children every Christmas her hands are full buying presents for her kids.

Basically, to sum it up, I think people like to say they’re monsters/evil/not human, because it absolves you of any actual societal responsibility. It’s easier to say a murdered is inhumane because it saves us of having to consider whether our society played a part in creating this ‘monster,’ and whether there’s a possibility we could know someone who has the potential to be like this as well.

That’s not be saying that murderers and child abusers can’t help it or anything like that. I’ve had a difficult childhood and I’m the opposite - I don’t want to pass that to my kids.

I was just pointing out that saying ‘x is evil and a monster so no point considering how that happened’ isn’t helpful really. It doesn’t help the victim, and it won’t stop it happening in the future the same way trying to make systemic and societal changes will.

I don't think that pondering whether something caused a person to act so abominably means that you have sympathy for them exactly.

I agree. Also it’s important for professional to ask these questions. If we know why people do these things we may beable to stop it in the future.

I'm not sure it's sympathy, I do wonder about why, mainly because if we know why, then we can maybe recognise it early and stop them from actually killing and abusing. Surely it would be better that their issues are recognised and supported rather than these things being brushed under the carpet resulting in it all going to ratshit and some poor sole dying.
It's not about sympathising with them it's about stopping them from harming.

If you understand the reasons why something has happened, then you can go some way to stop it from happening again.

No crime is ever cut and dry. Plenty of nice, respectable people do evil and horrendous things. Plenty of evil people still take their mum out for lunch on a Sunday, take the kids to school and walk the dog.

Yes, it’s entirely reasonable to examine behaviour dispassionately - clinically - but it’s another step to eagerly absolve them from blame because, because, because…..

OP although I have not read every thread about this murder I think I can confidently say that nobody on here (or anywhere) would have expressed sympathy for the murderers. Please can you share the evidence that they did?

Some people have discussed the possible reasons why people abuse or murder children because we really need to understand how it happens. It's a essential step in stopping it happening again. But discussing the reasons why somebody does something is not the same as sympathising. Problems in society get fixed by people looking at what causes them. We really have made a lot of progress in society this way. Children are much safer now than they were 100 years ago. If you don't allow anybody to talk about why things happen then nothing changes.

I followed the trial for quite a while. In my opinion, she is a psychopath and he was easily lead (by his penis) plus thick as shit.

I'm not actually interested in why she is a psychopath in this case, more that she never gets her hands on anyone else's kods again, including her own grandchildren in 29 years.

@Kanaloa

I can feel sorry for someone while abhorring the crimes they’ve committed or disliking the person they are. When I hear if a case like this I feel sorry it ever had to happen.

I think some people (not saying all, and not criticising) get too involved with cases like this. It’s like the not enjoy exactly but get some sort of energy out of being so wrapped up in it. I have an acquaintance who does it every time a case like this comes up, she reads every detail/article of the case and every time you see her she has to tell you how heartbroken she is for ‘poor little Arthur’ and how she hopes ‘those bastards rot in hell’ and what she’d do to them if she got her hands on them etc etc etc.

But when I suggest she might want to volunteer with me, working with foster children? No she doesn’t want to. When I mention that I buy gifts for children every Christmas her hands are full buying presents for her kids.

Basically, to sum it up, I think people like to say they’re monsters/evil/not human, because it absolves you of any actual societal responsibility. It’s easier to say a murdered is inhumane because it saves us of having to consider whether our society played a part in creating this ‘monster,’ and whether there’s a possibility we could know someone who has the potential to be like this as well.

Totally agree.

These threads are full of people saying 'I would have rescued that little boy and wrapped him in my arms etc etc' alongside 'those bastards are just evil blah blah'. How many kids just like this have those people fostered or adopted? None.

And just look at the number of people in AIBU telling others to mind their own business when they are concerned about a child.

It's all part of the same process where we put 'evil' in a box and claim it has nothing to do with the real world we live in. There is nothing we can do to help and so we have no obligation to do anything at all.

I'm not actually interested in why she is a psychopath in this case
We kind of need to be (as a society, not individuals necessarily, but you take my point) if we are to have any hope of understanding and possibly curing/ameliorating conditions like psychopathy, and/or preventing this sort of thing happening with people with these conditions.