AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

[IamSarah]

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

I see the usual references to DSDs and outright racism have been deployed. How disappointing and yet unsurprising.

At no point did I say "cis women" are a privileged group. Cis people are privileged in comparison to trans people. Men are privileged in comparison to women. We can have multiple roles.

@Pixiedust138. A trans woman is very different than a man turning up.

A trans woman is actually no different to man turning up. They both have a penis. Female rape victims to not want to talk about their rape experiences with people with a penis. Calling themselves a woman does not make them a woman. They should be in the trans support group and learn some sentivity.

A trans woman may need a space to explore issues regarding being trans as well as issues regarding being a woman.

So the person leading the group dedicated to TW can't possibly explore issues regarding the TW being a woman then? Why on earth not? Why would the TW need an additional group?

Would it be because they also need validation as well as trauma counselling, and providing that validation is more important than providing trauma counselling for a natal woman who wants to explore issues regarding being a natal woman.

Got it.

YANBU

I’m sorry for what has happened and what you are going through

I feel so angry about this girls and women need spaces that are for females only

Rape crisis centres were created to give BIOLOGICAL WOMEN a safe space away from BIOLOGICAL MEN.

If they aren’t going to do that anymore then they should return all of their funding to the donors, asap.

Totally agree Skysblue

@NeedsCharging

Stompy do you think males any male regardless of gender should be welcomed in to a female rape support group?

Per prior posts that would be no.

There is some line between male who has experienced sexual violence and another male who has also experienced sexual violence.

For funding purposes there would be a pyramid of provision which has males both at the top and somewhere down the bottom.

There is some line between male who has experienced sexual violence and another male who has also experienced sexual violence.

Whats the line?

@Stompythedinosaur

At no point did I say "cis women" are a privileged group. Cis people are privileged in comparison to trans people. Men are privileged in comparison to women. We can have multiple roles.

Cis people are privileged in comparison to trans people.

Says who? Who says that women are privileged compared to men who say they are women?

As has been said before: only men could opppress women for millenia, then decide that they want to insert themselves into the group they have been oppressing and then claim that they are more oppressed than that group.

What a load of bollocks. Literally.

[quote EmmaWoodhousestreehouse]@Pixiedust138. A trans woman is very different than a man turning up.

A trans woman is actually no different to man turning up. They both have a penis. Female rape victims to not want to talk about their rape experiences with people with a penis. Calling themselves a woman does not make them a woman. They should be in the trans support group and learn some sentivity.[/quote]
That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

You are absolutely not BU in any way, @IamSarah. I do not believe any man, presenting (what does that mean, I thought it wasn't just gold lame purses) in whatever way, belongs in those spaces, and the fact that you wanted to set up an additional group and were still refused makes the whole issue very clearly not about rape support for those people. It's about forcing women to accept this delusion in every possible space, with no dissent allowed whatsoever.

I have a Muslim friend who would absolutely 100% been excluded by this if it had been her support group; that group was a lifeline for her for many reasons which aren't mine to tell, but talking about her rape in front of a man? No.

Lots of women from minority backgrounds will end up self excluding, as will the most traumatised, those who may have learning difficulties or autism spectrum disorders and are unable to process an identity being more important than reality. The people who really actually are the most marginalised. Why are their needs so much further down the ladder that an ADDITIONAL group is not allowed?

[quote EmmaWoodhousestreehouse]@Pixiedust138. A trans woman is very different than a man turning up.

A trans woman is actually no different to man turning up. They both have a penis. Female rape victims to not want to talk about their rape experiences with people with a penis. Calling themselves a woman does not make them a woman. They should be in the trans support group and learn some sentivity.[/quote]
Although I do agree that they should join a trans group if there is one available. Not because I believe in excluding them but because other trans people are more likely to be able to have shared experiences with them so a trans group is likely to be a better option for that reason.

That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

Not anymore but they did for many years and even though they have had it removed it doesn't make them women.

Women are not just men without a penis ffs!

@SolasAnla

Hi *@Pixiedust138*

As you views and Stompythedinosaur's views appear to align perhaps you can have start at writing the policy document to be used by the service?

Per the copied post below

@Stompythedinosaur you claim to have experience in running support groups.

If you actually do run a support group you will known that providers of services need written policy and procedures.

Your position is that it is appropriate to provide different services.

Can you please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
• a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and
• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted

IMO having a policy of "Google it" would not be an acceptable work practice for any competent support group.

Thanks

If I worked for the organisation and it was my role to do so then I would. Neither applies to me. The OP was asking for different opinions, just giving mine. You don't have to agree with me.

YANBU. Obviously.

That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

less than 5% apparently have their penises removed. And gender reassignment surgery can also merely refer to facial feminisation and breast enlargement (ie. cosmetic surgery).

In addition, as has been pointed out, there is absolutely no way to tell which male has a penis still vs one that does not. So, what are you suggesting pixie to ensure that only those without a penis is in the group?

And please also tell us why a female should be gaslit at a time when they are needing to have trust in the group they are with to help them deal with trauma?

Gaslighting females that they should question their instinct that a person is male? How does that benefit any female exactly?

That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

You'll get different responses to this here because MN is widely varied in its make-up. Speaking only for myself, I would not be disturbed by someone who had had gender reassignment surgery being present but that's far from the majority of transwomen though.

@Stompythedinosaur
I have literally no idea why you'd imagine I'm obliged to write a policy document for you.
I never requested you do that.

For what?

You are the one arguing for the exclusion of some males from the service on the belief that a second group of males should be prioritised.

You are also arguing that females should be given less priority that this second group of males.

I am very curious at how you expect a service to classify these groups which are ranked in terms of the services they should be given.
As I said before it was a request to expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between clients.

I don't believe you are involved in running the Centre.
You must be mistaking me for another poster.
I never made any reference to any centre

OMG! Where do I start?

Personally I haven't experienced what you have so I know know how you feel but more generally a group for rape survivors for instance isn't sex specific

So I have wasted 2 years of my volunteering life searching for, re-writing bids for funding for our single sex groups because TWO YEARS AGO the requirements changed. Until then single sex groups were fine and all we had run for just short of 30 years!

And then Stompy

I'll answer this one, though I'm just about done with being personally attacked for voicing views on a thread where several posters specifically asked for people to explain why they thought differently.

Oh! Did anyone promise to accept what you said without a word of reply?

A trans woman may need a space to explore issues regarding being trans as well as issues regarding being a woman. Just like a woman of colour might need a group to look at experiences of being a woman and experiences of being a person of colour.

Just stop! To compare the issues of a man vs. a woman with a black woman vs a woman is, as ever, ludicrous, insulting and nonsensical!

To claim trans women are privileged because they have to content with multiple different ways of being oppressed is ridiculous. It is appropriate for them to have additional support in my view.

Ah! So now you parrot back to me what I typed earlier. OK! Those differences are what require separate provision. An idea I asked you to contemplate much much further up thread!

But the op hasn't suggested any transwomen have attempted to exclude others from the group. Transwomen aren't excluding others by existing.

Erm... I think yopu will find that OP WAS excluded from that group purely because their was a man in it! And has been dropped by the service as a whole for saying so.

I would say that if an individual can't access group support alongside the other woman using the service then it is reasonable to offer 1:1 support as an alternative.

And you couldn't read the information about the 18 month waiting list?

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.

Just stop it. That is so bloody offensive and utterly incorrect. For decades female services have existed. Many women fought hard for them, paid for them, built them from the ground up. Your stupid, stupid vacuous twaddle is insulting to the many women who worked hard to get some kind of safe spaces and therpaapy for women who had been badly abused.

Oh, and cis is offensive to most here. Is on the list of terms MNHQ delete posts for. I feel marginally tempted to report your post, but only because someone targetted me earlier in the week for trying to speak clearly!

I suspect I have more lived experience in providing support to rape victims than the majority of posters on this thread.

Nope! You said you had some experience of running a mental health group. Have you completely forgotten that you have replied to my posts? You know, the ones where I explain where I volunteer, what I do and how long I have done it for? Or do you think that a specialised funding researcher just sits in a remote office and never meets staff or client groups?

I spend about 8 hours week in week out inside a refuge. I talk to the women and kids in there, Ask them what they need, what we could provide that would make their lives easier, listen to their stories. I was safeguarding officer in my previous job and have had a lot, and I mean a lot, of 'listening as a therapy' training - under many ridiculous names.

What do you do?

Besides deride a woman, the OP for speaking out about the additional trauma heaped upion her by a centre that is funded to help her.

Maybe direct some of your passion into helping rather that whatever this thread is

You must see just how poisonously vile that sounds!

And ONLY MALES can rape in England and Wales. Bar some extremely rare and very specific circumstances. It requires a penis. SO men, inclduing transwomen, are the only human beings who can rape. Which is why we, and most centres, also specifically serve women who have been sexually assaulted.

But hey! You'd know that had you ever actually helped provide succour and support for a woman who had been raped.

@urbanbuddha

That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

You'll get different responses to this here because MN is widely varied in its make-up. Speaking only for myself, I would not be disturbed by someone who had had gender reassignment surgery being present but that's far from the majority of transwomen though.

Oh absolutely. I'm just pointing out that some have had the surgery as person I was relying to implied that all trans women have penises which isn't the case.

Stompy

So I guess you think the trans only group should be shut down, right? It's exclusionary.

AnyFucker It is really concerning that someone with stompy’s views runs a MH support group

Stompythedinosaur I think you'll find most NHS employees support trans rights.

Which includes placing male paedophile rapist who stated they were a TW into a locked psychiatric ward with a woman, said male paedophile rapist who stated they were a TW then went on to rape the woman repeatedly and caused so much damage to the woman internally that said woman will never be able to have children. Said paedophile rapist is still claiming they are TW and as the mantra chanters would have it TWAW and that includes said person.

Said woman will not be able to access any rape support services that are not female only, so great inclusion, great kindness, great empathy. Full marks TWAW chanters - this is what you are condoning and supporting.

A trans woman is very different than a man turning up.

In what sense? Could you elaborate on the difference?

A trans woman may need a space to explore issues regarding being trans as well as issues regarding being a woman. Just like a woman of colour might need a group to look at experiences of being a woman and experiences of being a person of colour

Okay. So why can't a woman have a space to explore issues regarding being a woman? I don't want to do that with a male present, however that male feels inside.