Page 8 | AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

IamSarah · 2021-12-08T13:56:49+00:00

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman. After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU? YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

Helleofabore · 08/12/2021 19:16

So, being asked to clarify your reasons, and to provide evidence is still being framed as 'attacks'?

If any poster on this thread is attacking anyone, please report it.

It is appropriate for them to have additional support in my view.

Is anyone disagreeing that any trans people should have their unique and specific needs supported in support groups specifically catering to their needs?

I have not seen one person state this. If they have, please name and shame them.

Why do you continue with the hyperbolic claims?

LostForIdeas · 08/12/2021 19:16

Also your example with women of colour…

I don’t think anyone would ever suggest they have to be supported both in a group for women of colour AND with a group where there will be white women. As of somehow, white women can bring some experiences that other women of colour can’t?? That would be the only reason why there was an advantages to being in two groups.

urbanbuddha · 08/12/2021 19:17

To claim trans women are privileged because they have to content with multiple different ways of being oppressed is ridiculous.

Sorry, missed that. Who claimed that?

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 19:17

[quote MothershipG]@Stompythedinosaur

So trans rights trump woman's rights to single sex spaces for rape support? Is that what you are saying?

I have asked this in a variety of ways and you have yet to answer.

And following from that you believe that trans rights should see them in Women's refuges, prisons & toilets? [/quote]
Of course they don't. But the op hasn't suggested any transwomen have attempted to exclude others from the group.

Transwomen aren't excluding others by existing.

I would say that if an individual can't access group support alongside the other woman using the service then it is reasonable to offer 1:1 support as an alternative.

Original poster

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 19:17

A trans woman may need a space to explore issues regarding being trans as well as issues regarding being a woman.

Of course. And that trans woman can go to the women's group or the trans group at my local centre.

Why does that trans woman also need to attend the ADDITIONAL group I requested just for women born female?

OP posts:

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/12/2021 19:20

Oh, if only an organisation such as Stonewall had the funds to provide dedicated services for trans and non-binary people.

Oh, wait...

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 19:21

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2021 19:24

Black women are not physically different to white women.

Transwomen are. Whether they are pre op or post op.

When you are talking about rape and sexual violence thats relevant.

Suggesting that transwomen are women because black women are different to white women is frankly just fucking racist.

NeedsCharging · 08/12/2021 19:24

Transwomen aren't excluding others by existing

Not by existing no but when a TW enters a woman only space at least 1 woman will be excluded because now that woman only space has a male in it.
Why is that difficult to grasp?

Redshoeblueshoe · 08/12/2021 19:25

You are so nearly there Stompy - the oppressed group

That'll be women then

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/12/2021 19:25

@Stompythedinosaur

Many women (and men) find the term 'cis' offensive. Please don't use it.

IN LAW services can be segregated by sex, not gender.

Original poster

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 19:26

@Stompythedinosaur

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.

Please can you explain exactly how the trans woman with multiple groups to choose from is more oppressed than me with 0 groups?

OP posts:

Antsgomarching · 08/12/2021 19:26

Transwomen are not going to experience rape in the same way women do. If they are sexually assaulted it will be in a different way and for different reasons than a woman. The literally will not be able to connect with that experience in the same way women can try to imagine what it’s like for a male to experience rape but not in a way that other males would understand. Transwomen should have spaces to talk about therir experiences but don’t need to invade womens spaces to do it.

Can’t help but to think that guy (sorry not sorry, its a bloke who is making sure everyone knows there is a bloke in the room while women are expected to carry on talking about being raped) was there to get his kicks.

MothershipG · 08/12/2021 19:26

@Stompythedinosaur

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.

In this case the oppressed group is woman who have been raped who need a space that excludes the group of people with a penis.

How do you not see this?

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2021 19:26

@Stompythedinosaur

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.

White rape victims aren't oppressed enough. Is that what you are saying? Just trying to clarify what you just said.

So you would be fine with a service for black women that excluded transwomen then? Cos they are oppressed enough.

urbanbuddha · 08/12/2021 19:28

Transwomen aren't excluding others by existing

Of course they're not.
But in a service dedicated to the traumatised female victims of rape it would be helpful if transwomen could show empathy and understanding and absent themselves from the group which is female only and in this case has to be female born only. The rapist has a penis. This has been weaponised to attack the woman. She needs space to start to recover, away from people with penises.
You have a tendency to spout dogma but I don't doubt you're sincere. It's time to start listening to what you're hearing.

NeedsCharging · 08/12/2021 19:32

Stompy do you think males any male regardless of gender should be welcomed in to a female rape support group?

Original poster

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 19:33

I've also noticed every trans woman survivor claims their perpetrator was a woman. I'm sure this is equally traumatic to my experiences but nonetheless very, very different.

OP posts:

SolasAnla · 08/12/2021 19:33

Hi @Pixiedust138

As you views and Stompythedinosaur's views appear to align perhaps you can have start at writing the policy document to be used by the service?

Per the copied post below

@Stompythedinosaur you claim to have experience in running support groups.

If you actually do run a support group you will known that providers of services need written policy and procedures.

Your position is that it is appropriate to provide different services.

Can you please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
• a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and
• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted

IMO having a policy of "Google it" would not be an acceptable work practice for any competent support group.

Thanks

HollowTalk · 08/12/2021 19:35

@IamSarah

I've also noticed every trans woman survivor claims their perpetrator was a woman. I'm sure this is equally traumatic to my experiences but nonetheless very, very different.

Are they actually saying that the abuse from a woman is sexual abuse? I wonder whether they are just talking about women who perhaps are married to them who say that they - the TW - are not actually women. Literal violence.

Helleofabore · 08/12/2021 19:37

Transwomen aren't excluding others by existing.

I think that is splitting hairs right there. By 'existing' in that group they are making that group a mixed sex group and they are thereby excluding women that need single sex spaces.

I would say that if an individual can't access group support alongside the other woman using the service then it is reasonable to offer 1:1 support as an alternative.

Excellent. But when there is no 1:1 available for 18 months, that is again effectively excluding a woman from care particularly when there are specific groups already available for that male.

So, this is an instance when sex should be prioritised over gender. Prioritising gender here does lead to the harm of any woman requiring a single sex service. And by the way, this is allowed for, and specifically listed, in the EA10.

Why would anyone continue to try to shame a woman seeking care when the Act allows exactly that, yet, funding models have been allowed to develop where services have had to allow males into female services to receive funding?

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 08/12/2021 19:38

@Stompythedinosaur

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.

Ok, if you insist on appropriating race as a comparison.....Would it be OK for a white person to paint their face black, dress and act according to society's stereotypes about what black people dress and behave as, and then that white person claim that they are more oppressed than black people, because black people are 'cis black' and therefore more privileged?

Because that it what you are doing when you say that 'cis women' are a 'privileged group'. It's really offensive, please don't do it.

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 19:40

@SolasAnla

Hi *@Pixiedust138*

As you views and Stompythedinosaur's views appear to align perhaps you can have start at writing the policy document to be used by the service?

Per the copied post below

@Stompythedinosaur you claim to have experience in running support groups.

If you actually do run a support group you will known that providers of services need written policy and procedures.

Your position is that it is appropriate to provide different services.

Can you please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
• a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and
• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted

IMO having a policy of "Google it" would not be an acceptable work practice for any competent support group.

Thanks

I have literally no idea why you'd imagine I'm obliged to write a policy document for you. For what? I don't believe you are involved in running the Centre.

I suspect I have more lived experience in providing support to rape victims than the majority of posters on this thread. Maybe direct some of your passion into helping rather that whatever this thread is.

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 19:42

@IamSarah

I've also noticed every trans woman survivor claims their perpetrator was a woman. I'm sure this is equally traumatic to my experiences but nonetheless very, very different.

That is not my experience at all. Male are the perpetrators in nearly all rapes, whoever the victim is.

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 19:43

*men