AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

[IamSarah]

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

Stompy, also, I wanted to say I really do appreciate you coming back to discuss your reasoning. It's very hard, as you can see from the poll, for most women to understand your point of view, so it's really good to get to ask questions and have them answered. Thank you for engaging.

@urbanbuddha

That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

You'll get different responses to this here because MN is widely varied in its make-up. Speaking only for myself, I would not be disturbed by someone who had had gender reassignment surgery being present but that's far from the majority of transwomen though.

Figures available are that over 80% retain their fully functional male genitalia.

Secondly, how would you know whether or not they had had gender reassignment surgery?

Thirdly, are you really saying that a woman is merely a man without a penis? Seriously? There are no other differences?

@NeedsCharging

There is some line between male who has experienced sexual violence and another male who has also experienced sexual violence.

Whats the line?

That is the question is it not?

If gender is the gatekeeper for a service, the organisation should be transparent for how the decision making process is applied.

Cis people are privileged in comparison to trans people

Again, in what sense are MTF trans people oppressed so their feelings should take precedence in relation to women, a traditionally oppressed group. Please evidence this.

we all know you can't

If I worked for the organisation and it was my role to do so then I would

As I have said, I do. I can, And I know that much of what has been said here is so far from the truth it is insulting.

Can you please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
^• a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and^
^• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted^

In my case neither would be invited to the groups we have run for decades.

The male presenting as a male would be sent to A N Other organisation who specifically cater for male victims. It is very small and, as it doesn't draw a lot of funding, we allocate some to them every year - yes, it helps us with our diveristy issues. But we did this before we were challenged so, meh!

The transwoman would be too. Mainly because that group has all the signposting, partnerships, trained staff, medical advice etc aimed at helping male rape victims. And they have transgender sessions.

Once, just once, we have had a transwoman insist on using the womens service. We refused. We asked the cohort of women already in service and they said no. 100% of them said no. So we did not accommodate that person. The male service provider came and spoke to them and they went off to them.

After that we realised we had been lucky and my journey to try and reduce thepossible harm our being resolutely female could cause us.

So now we have a trans and non binary group session. Run in a different buidling, open to anyone who wants to come in and discuss their issues, man, woman, trans, non binary, anyone, everyone. Obviously it is a completely different kind of group, but it has cost us a bloody fortune to set up and, perhaps not surprisingly, is not all that well attended. We may have to close it next year, after collecting all possible proof that we tried really hard to keep it going - and yes, we will inevitably lose funding over and above what was allocated to it.

And we are not unusual in all we have done or been challenged with. 2 other organisations in this county and 3 from nearby have had the same. We are tiny grass roots entities that have been too small for notice for decades.

Long may that continue!

Validating a transwomans womanhood is more important than recognising the source of a woman's trauma from a penis.

I think we've all got the message loud and clear by now.

Women are undeserving of a service which recognises their trauma, things that trigger their trauma and any potential issues over their religious beliefs.

Meanwhile transwomen who have a trans group they can use, should have their identity validated without anyone complaints.

Even though the physical form of women and transwomen is different. As are the power and control dynamics at play.

Transwomen need specialist services as a result of their unique oppression social status but women dont. Is that because their abuse is more simplistic or lesser or something? Or just because they matter less than males?

Sorry but its very easy to see through how males get gold star service whereas women are supposed to put up with a lesser service because they are the wrong sex.

We see through this shit and are calling it out.

and therefore do not have penises

So what ? Still a man. Like I am still a woman if I have a hysterectomy.

@SolasAnla That was me. I do work for a crisis centre/refuge.

Stompy has mistaken which poster was being repsonded to!

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

If I worked for the organisation and it was my role to do so then I would

As I have said, I do. I can, And I know that much of what has been said here is so far from the truth it is insulting.

Can you please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
^• a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and^
^• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted^

In my case neither would be invited to the groups we have run for decades.

The male presenting as a male would be sent to A N Other organisation who specifically cater for male victims. It is very small and, as it doesn't draw a lot of funding, we allocate some to them every year - yes, it helps us with our diveristy issues. But we did this before we were challenged so, meh!

The transwoman would be too. Mainly because that group has all the signposting, partnerships, trained staff, medical advice etc aimed at helping male rape victims. And they have transgender sessions.

Once, just once, we have had a transwoman insist on using the womens service. We refused. We asked the cohort of women already in service and they said no. 100% of them said no. So we did not accommodate that person. The male service provider came and spoke to them and they went off to them.

After that we realised we had been lucky and my journey to try and reduce thepossible harm our being resolutely female could cause us.

So now we have a trans and non binary group session. Run in a different buidling, open to anyone who wants to come in and discuss their issues, man, woman, trans, non binary, anyone, everyone. Obviously it is a completely different kind of group, but it has cost us a bloody fortune to set up and, perhaps not surprisingly, is not all that well attended. We may have to close it next year, after collecting all possible proof that we tried really hard to keep it going - and yes, we will inevitably lose funding over and above what was allocated to it.

And we are not unusual in all we have done or been challenged with. 2 other organisations in this county and 3 from nearby have had the same. We are tiny grass roots entities that have been too small for notice for decades.

Long may that continue!

That sounds great, good for you guys that's good work and I'm sure it was appreciated by those that did attend!

I've heard on the quiet that is often the policy, Samphire. They can't say it explicitly, mostly.

Thanks for all that you do, Samphire. It must be a challenging role at the best of times. Your service should be showered with money.

I would ask if there are make only rape survivors groups ,

Although I do agree that they should join a trans group if there is one available. Not because I believe in excluding them but because other trans people are more likely to be able to have shared experiences with them so a trans group is likely to be a better option for that reason.

@Pixiedust138, yes I agree with that.
The life experience of transwomen will be vastly different the one women have.
They’ve had to go through gender reassignment which will have been traumatic.
The rape itself will have been physically different (assuming they still have their penis which the vast majority of them).
The physical consequences will be different.
And that’s wo going into the fact experiences, beliefs etc… around who they are will have been affected by their previous life as a man.

So I am wondering what are those transwomen gaining from a women (sex) only group? What shared experience do they have?

@AnyFucker

and therefore do not have penises

So what ? Still a man. Like I am still a woman if I have a hysterectomy.

Quite.

It needs to be said, over and over again.

Because there are also many males out in the world without a penis who are not identifying as women. So, what sets those men apart from those who do identify as women. Artificial Estrogen?

It doesn't feel good at the moment @Pixiedust138 It feels precarious.

Having had this group, having supported the male service may well have been a very wrong move. Both could be used as leverage to prove we should be open to both sexes and all genders. Just as remaining single sex lost us funding anyway!

Its a can of worms I can't get my head round. But the official letters telling us bluntly that we should accept men, cater for them within our single sex service have been alarming - note men. Not transwomen, men. That is how far some streaming funds have gone already!

Also note that I have not mentioned any official request to explain what we do for transmen. Because we have never, ever been asked. Isn't that mad? We have never, as a single ex service, been asked how we cater for part of that cohort!

We do, obviously. But nobody seems to care enough to ask about it!

Wow, I don't understand anyone thinking that this wouldn't be an issue!!?? WTF so I'm guessing all men identifying as females can go to breastfeeding groups.....

You should never have been challenged, Samphire, you should not have to jump through those extra hoops, you should not have your funding subject to such whims.

Single sex female only rape crisis and trauma services are the very example used in the Equality Act as services where the exclusion of all males is protected, it is not discriminatory or prejudiced to do so - the fucking Law states this.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus, thank you!

@LostForIdeas

Although I do agree that they should join a trans group if there is one available. Not because I believe in excluding them but because other trans people are more likely to be able to have shared experiences with them so a trans group is likely to be a better option for that reason.

@Pixiedust138, yes I agree with that.
The life experience of transwomen will be vastly different the one women have.
They’ve had to go through gender reassignment which will have been traumatic.
The rape itself will have been physically different (assuming they still have their penis which the vast majority of them).
The physical consequences will be different.
And that’s wo going into the fact experiences, beliefs etc… around who they are will have been affected by their previous life as a man.

So I am wondering what are those transwomen gaining from a women (sex) only group? What shared experience do they have?

It depends what the options are really doesn't it. If there is a trans group option available then that seems like the better fit but if it's the choice between a male group or a female group and you're a trans woman you'd probably want to opt for the female group because you believe you're a woman, not a man.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I've heard on the quiet that is often the policy, Samphire. They can't say it explicitly, mostly.

In the olden days, ten or more years ago, we had a few shelters. I worked in one which was mainly male with a female floor. Trans women were welcome on that floor. There was also a women's shelter. Women and trans men were welcome there but not trans women. Everyone was accommodated.

Now all the women's accommodations welcome trans women and there is nowhere for traumatised, abused women to go if they are triggered. I genuinely cannot see how that's MORE inclusive. Everyone had somewhere before. Now some vulnerable women don't.

I just don't understand it.

Glinner published an essay written by a recent rape victim about this. It was regarding Rape Crisis Scotland. Maybe the people who don’t get it on this thread should read it?

So I am wondering what are those transwomen gaining from a women (sex) only group? What shared experience do they have?

You mean other than power over women in the group and those excluded from the group or self excluded from the group.

Actively chosing a women's group over a trans one is an assertion of power. Often over the powerless.

Figures available are that over 80% retain their fully functional male genitalia.

Secondly, how would you know whether or not they had had gender reassignment surgery?

Thirdly, are you really saying that a woman is merely a man without a penis?

I think there needs to be a much more nuanced discussion and debate around these questions. I am worried by the erosion of safe places and sports for girls particularly, but the either/or playground shouting will get us nowhere.

To answer your questions

i) I think it's more than 80% actually.

ii) I would expect the group leader to know and to have had confirmation from the hospital that performed the surgery. Or something equally rigourous.

iii) I don't think a person who has elected to

have surgery to remove their penis and to have female surgery can be counted as a man. I would see her as a woman.

I'm sorry I can't discuss this more fully just now but it's drinks at a neighbour's and I'm already late.

WTF so I'm guessing all men identifying as females can go to breastfeeding groups.....

Well... I hate to disappoint you. But that is a different thread altogether. But you might start with this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4410394-La-Leche-League-are-consulting-to-remove-the-words-Womanly-Art-and-Breastfeeding-from-their-book-The-Womanly-Art-of-Breastfeeding

@Helleofabore gender identity. That's the thing isn't it. If you ask a trans person what makes them a woman they will say that it's their gender identity rather than about their sexual organs. Sex is male or female. Gender identity is man, woman, trans, non binary etc.