AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

[IamSarah]

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

It's also worth mentioning that when I suggested creating the additional support group just for biological women I suggested it was arranged discreetly and sensitively. It could have simply been called a 'closed peer support group' meaning group members don't come and go, it's always the same people. Those people would just happen to all be biologically female.

That is neat solution. Sadly, I can see that to purists this would still not be acceptable.

Women who believe TWAW and who want to be good allies are more than welcome to join them in all the other mixed sex women's groups. Nobody is trying to stop those groups or take that option away.

Yes. And those women are welcome to take that option. They don't get to take the right away from women who don't consent to this. Well they might try. Along with the men who are doing their best. But they're going to have a fucking huge legal battle on their hands. They're not going to win this.

Devastated that it’s come to this.

A rape crisis centre that supports everyone except women who have been raped and need a single sex space.

@ElPolloLoco

Devastated that it’s come to this.

A rape crisis centre that supports everyone except women who have been raped and need a single sex space.

The irony is that they sell themselves as a feminist organisation with a feminist approach.

Even the most liberal feminists believe in equality of the sexes, not prioritising the male sex over the female sex.

They fail to mention they exclude and block female rape survivors who ask to be treated equally to male / trans rape survivors.

I don't think a person who has elected to
have surgery to remove their penis and to have female surgery can be counted as a man. I would see her as a woman.

How are they different to a man who has lost his genitals to injury/illness? Because the ones I know would be very distressed and offended to be told that they are now women.

Despite what nursey in Blackadder thinks a boy without a winky is not a girl.

@IamSarah I'm so sorry 💐. Please know that the vast majority of people think you are not being unreasonable and can totally understand why you need a single sex group. I hope you are able to find support that meets that need.

It's also worth mentioning that when I suggested creating the additional support group just for biological women I suggested it was arranged discreetly and sensitively. It could have simply been called a 'closed peer support group' meaning group members don't come and go, it's always the same people. Those people would just happen to all be biologically female

@IamSarah I don’t even think you should have to have asked to be discreet and secretive. You have a fundamental right to access support that feels like a safe space and doesn’t make you uncomfortable.

If trans women are actually women, and wanting to BE women, surely they should understand that other women have triggers (men, in a case such as rape by a man) which l we should support each other not being forced to be triggered by. If you join the sisterhood, don’t pick and choose which bits you like and which suit you, and trample all over others.

@Derbee

It's also worth mentioning that when I suggested creating the additional support group just for biological women I suggested it was arranged discreetly and sensitively. It could have simply been called a 'closed peer support group' meaning group members don't come and go, it's always the same people. Those people would just happen to all be biologically female

@IamSarah I don’t even think you should have to have asked to be discreet and secretive. You have a fundamental right to access support that feels like a safe space and doesn’t make you uncomfortable.

If trans women are actually women, and wanting to BE women, surely they should understand that other women have triggers (men, in a case such as rape by a man) which l we should support each other not being forced to be triggered by. If you join the sisterhood, don’t pick and choose which bits you like and which suit you, and trample all over others.

This:

And it has to be faced. The situation has been created in which male people have become the gatekeepers of female services and which females they may choose to grant the privilege of access.

In a women's service.

In which they were included on the ground that TWAW and therefore women's services were excluding women, and this was obviously unacceptable. However it does not seem to be a problem at all that TW are now excluding women.

I would really like to know if it is the TW service users driving this, or if the service leaders are doing this in their name without their knowledge and consent. I think this matters a great deal.

How are they different to a man who has lost his genitals to injury/illness? Because the ones I know would be very distressed and offended to be told that they are now women.

Because their desire/need to be accepted as a woman is demonstrably strong and dominates the way they live their lives. A man injured in an accident is not subject to this - it's a red herring to raise this when discussing the position of transwomen in society.

I also think that the assimilation of a transwoman into society is a process which takes time and requires empathy on all sides. It does not happen overnight.

As I said earlier I think there is room - and a great need - for much more nuanced discussion on this.

I would really like to know if it is the TW service users driving this, or if the service leaders are doing this in their name without their knowledge and consent. I think this matters a great deal.

I'm pretty sure it's all driven by Stonewall.

The trans service users want their own group as that's where they feel safest. SN proudly state this on their website.

Because their desire/need to be accepted as a woman is demonstrably strong and dominates the way they live their lives

Lack of a penis doesn't make them a woman because the differences between men and women don't start and finish with a penis. When a rape survivor with PTSD is triggered by the presence of a male they don't have to see a penis to be triggered. Even if that was the only difference the vast majority of transwomen retain their penis.
But that desire doesn't make them a woman. They can "live as a woman" (what ever that means) but they cannot become one and frankly the lack of empathy as to why there are places that are not suitable to be mix sex just highlights this. People are free to dress as they like, to call themselves what ever they want to, to use what ever pronouns they want but when they can't (or won't) accept that it is not possible to change sex (they can't under do their socialization, the way the world see them, their body that has developed a certain way because of male puberty etc) but even if they could and even if every single transwomen ever is gentle and kind and timid and has zero tendancy remaining toward male behaviour how can segregate spaces to admit some men without also opening up to other men who are less kind, less benign? Once we loose the power to challenge one male born person in what should be a female only space we loose the ability to challenge any man in that space.

Because their desire/need to be accepted as a woman is demonstrably strong and dominates the way they live their lives.

That may be, but it is biologically impossible for them to change sex, regardless of their desires.

That has implications for others. In this instance vulnerable women who may be triggered by male bodies in a place they go to to deal with trauma.

So yes, of course we should have empathy. And I support people's desire to live however they want. But empathy should not be expected to stretch to denying biological reality.

As I said earlier I think there is room - and a great need - for much more nuanced discussion on this.

As long as males are using and destroying women's single sex spaces and safeguards, effectively turning those provisions in to mixed sex services, there is no discussion to be had.

Transwomen need their own services sure. Their needs however are completely different to women's, as they are not women. Women have unique needs of their own that are not the same as men's. Presenting as a woman does not make someone a woman, even if they have their penis removed. They remain a male, without a penis, dressing how they perceive women dress according to gender stereotypes. It's biology that makes someone male or female. Not feelings.

Transwomen are slightly different in some, but not all ways, to other men. A combination of male services and trans only services to meet needs around dysphoria and mental health / surgery issues would suffice.

But destroying women's services to supposedly meet the needs of transwomen (males) is not acceptable. No more nuanced discussion needs to take place around how women can be further persuaded into accepting some males into their spaces because of their womanly feelings.

I also think that the assimilation of a transwoman into society is a process which takes time and requires empathy on all sides. It does not happen overnight.

No one is saying that transwomen cannot 'assimilate into society'. It's just that, as males, they shouldn't be allowed access into female only single sex spaces and provision, in the same way that other males are not allowed this sort of access.

But if it's fundamentally about SEX you behave that way. And in the UK at least, rape is with a penis. It's is SEX based.

I know the thread has moved on but I often see it said on discussions around trans on MN that only people with a penis can rape. This is not the case.

From 2001
Woman found guilty of towpath rape

Part of trauma of rape comes from the fact that (in most cases) the penis, the instrument of the physical expression of love, or just plain good fun, has been used as a weapon in an act of violence and degradation. This is a betrayal that is one of the main causes of the trauma. In the above case the woman found guilty of rape had betrayed the victim in a similarly violent and degrading way despite being penis-free.

Link fail

found guilty of towpath rape

But @urbanbuddha that woman was raped with a penis. The fact that very rare joint venture can happen doesn't mean rapes don't involve penises.

I voted YABU. There were some comments earlier saying that people who voted YABU should explain why.
Charities don't have unlimited resources and I don't feel you can expect them to provide additional groups that go against their moral/political beliefs at your request. So that's why.

Part of trauma of rape comes from the fact that (in most cases) the penis, the instrument of the physical expression of love, or just plain good fun, has been used as a weapon in an act of violence and degradation.

I was raped and my trauma comes from the fact a man forced his penis in side me, ejaculated, beat me and left me for dead.
My trauma comes from waiting weeks to find out if I was pregnant with my rapists baby, had a STD and being viciously questioned by police to find out if I was in some way responsible.
Women are fully aware that penises are used as weapons our trauma does not start by realising that fact ffs.

I am so sorry they didn’t respect your request, the world has gone completely mad.

Charities don't have unlimited resources and I don't feel you can expect them to provide additional groups that go against their moral/political beliefs at your request. So that's why.

WOW.
You think its ok for a womans rape support group to expel a raped woman because a man wants to join in on a WOMENS rape support group... I cannot say what I want as MNHQ will delete me.

@urbanbuddha

How are they different to a man who has lost his genitals to injury/illness? Because the ones I know would be very distressed and offended to be told that they are now women.

Because their desire/need to be accepted as a woman is demonstrably strong and dominates the way they live their lives. A man injured in an accident is not subject to this - it's a red herring to raise this when discussing the position of transwomen in society.

I also think that the assimilation of a transwoman into society is a process which takes time and requires empathy on all sides. It does not happen overnight.

As I said earlier I think there is room - and a great need - for much more nuanced discussion on this.

Because their desire/need to be accepted as a woman is demonstrably strong and dominates the way they live their lives.

They have no right to dominate the way I live my life which is what they are doing. They can believe what they like about themselves they cannot force me to do so, I do not have to agree that they are women, I do not have to remove my boundaries, I do not and should not be expected to give up spaces, services and sports that are designed for my use in order to validate their view of themselves -that is authoritarian and dictatorial.

Where is their empathy for me and other women?

Where is their kindness and understanding?

It is all about them and them changing the world to revolve around them and bugger those that lose what was theirs by right of their sex.

You think its ok for a womans rape support group to expel a raped woman because a man wants to join in on a WOMENS rape support group... I cannot say what I want as MNHQ will delete me.

Well, they didn't expel her. OP chose to leave because she didn't find it acceptable.
And there was no man joining in on a women's group, because it was a woman, a trans woman. I know you don't believe that, but I and more importantly the charity providing the service do.

@Hont1986

I voted YABU. There were some comments earlier saying that people who voted YABU should explain why. Charities don't have unlimited resources and I don't feel you can expect them to provide additional groups that go against their moral/political beliefs at your request. So that's why.

@Hont1986 They already have a female only group, they just need to enforce it. It doesn't cost any extra funding.

Please explain how having a safe space for women would be against anyone's "moral/political beliefs"? What moral/political beliefs are there that say women don't have the right to have a safe space? Please explain your thinking on this.

If it was a male presenting as male (by that I assume you mean cis-male... Or did you mean he is a trans male?), why would he be allowed at the women's group? I'm confused...