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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

564 replies

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 13:56

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 02:52

@Stompythedinosaur Women are a minority. An oppressed minority. A male born person is not a minority.

Only on mn is it a far out belief to say it is OK to be trans.

No one on Mn is saying it's not ok to be trans. Just that women should have a right to biological sex-only spaces. How is that so difficult for you to understand?

ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 03:16

@Stompythedinosaur I think you'll find most NHS employees support trans rights.

Supporting trans rights is irrelevant, we all support trans rights. But we support women's sex-based rights, that are enshrined in law.

Btw, employees of NHS and their union are campaigning to have the NHS leave Stonewall.

ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 03:18

@Pixiedust138 A trans woman is very different than a man turning up.

No it isn't because they are both one and the same. Both a penis-haver.

ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 03:22

@Stompythedinosaur I would say that if an individual can't access group support alongside the other woman using the service then it is reasonable to offer 1:1 support as an alternative.

OR, if an individual can't access group support alongside the other women using the service because a male is present, then it is reasonable to offer a biological woman-only service as an alternative.

ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 03:25

@Stompythedinosaur

Most services don't offer a cis only group for the same reason they don't offer white only groups, straight only groups or men only groups. Because private space is generally reserved for the oppressed group.
@Stompythedinosaur BIOLOGICAL WOMEN ARE the oppressed group! Which means that male bodies however they 'identify' as are NOT the oppressed group and have no right being there.

Btw, the centre has a man-only group, AND a trans-only group. Just not a women-only group.

ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 03:35

@Pixiedust138 That's just not accurate. Some trans women have had gender reassignment surgery and therefore do not have penises.

Only 3%, that's three percent, of trans women have had their penis removed. The massive OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, 97%, retain their penis. Despite claiming they 'feel' woman.

When 97% percent of trans women retain their weapon - their penis, then safeguarding needs to be made of this basis.

SD1978 · 09/12/2021 03:49

YANBU. you can't have a group that protects one 'type' of women, and not others. Sex is still a protected characteristic, and whilst you'll never win this one, and I'm sorry about that and hope you get the help,you need and deserve, it's another example,of the unfairness and inequalities women face. We can be in all your places, because we are you, but you can't play where we say you can't play......

Kyliealwayshadthebestdisco · 09/12/2021 04:03

You are not the one being unreasonable here in this particular situation. It’s madness that they can’t see this.

ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 04:13

@DdraigGoch

I suspect I have more lived experience in providing support to rape victims than the majority of posters on this thread. Which says a lot *@Stompythedinosaur*, though not in the way you had intended. No wonder services are in such a state.
I doubt very much Stompy has ever even met a rape victim. No one could be so sociopathically lacking in empathy, intuition and understanding of a rape victim's needs if they had.
ClaudiaJ1 · 09/12/2021 04:20

The reason why 2 posters are complaining about Sarah starting this thread, on AIBU, is because they don't want the truth of what is happening to get out, they want to silence her, to stop the wider community becoming aware.

Tough titties to those 2 posters! We will shout about this and never, ever, ever shut up. We won't stop until our SEX-BASED RIGHTS, enshrined in law, are restored/stop being removed. We will win.

NotBadConsidering · 09/12/2021 06:23

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

This entire thread reminds me of this graphic.
Remarkably, despite that poster, Clementine Ford is full TWAW.
LimpLettice · 09/12/2021 07:13

@EricCartmansUnderpants

So Midrul is a male, presumably identifying as a female. Who left the SNP because Midrul thinks men should be able to examine women who have been raped. And now has got a job leading Edinburgh rape crises. Right at the centre of where abused, traumatised and vulnerable women are. Midrul is there shaping the organisation for the benefit of men. Where abused woman turn to, born males like Midrul are waiting for them. Supposedly to ease their trauma. Sounds like a second assault to me. It's astounding how men have got themselves into these positions and got ahead of law and policy in order to establish a foothold. And males like these, that seem to have little regard for women, are the last males women should ever be sharing their sex segregated space with.
Yep!
Helleofabore · 09/12/2021 07:42

I am sure I saw a thread started last night with Mr Menno’s latest video.

Penises have been censored out but it is still confronting enough to need a content warning!!!

However, saying that it is rather a relevant string of pictorial evidence on the fact that while not all TW are like that, you cannot tell until it is too late which is which.

I won’t link it as Mr Menno’s YouTube links tend to get deleted so I am just suggesting you search for it yourself.

It does include reference to the fast growing porn category of transitioned penises being masturbated in female toilets.

I mention this because there is large elephant in the room that certain posters who keep pleading for females to lower their boundaries like to ignore. There are a known, although small, group of males who DO find pleasure in being in female only spaces. This may be sexual, but it may also be based on other motivations.

But only those who are either uninformed, or determinedly adhering to their own agenda will seek to silence women discussing this particular group. Those who are uninformed do it because they don’t want to believe it happens. Those who know it happens, ignore it while silencing anyone who highlights it because it may damage their political aims. Well, there are also those who directly benefit from this being kept silent, but I hope it is not the motivation of anyone on this thread.

My advice to those who are attempting to silence anyone from having this discussion, or to control the discussion, even via shaming tactics and emotional manipulation (including hyperbole) is to examine why you wish to deny this (very small) group of males exist. What else, other than silencing women discussing it, are they actively doing to facilitate it? What is their personal motivation?

How do they believe these people are to be filtered out? Do they think these males wear a sign that states their intention?

And do you honestly believe ANY female’s trauma or discomfort should be used in this way?

Helleofabore · 09/12/2021 07:49

The current CEO of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre also admitted in an interview that it gave them some kind of thrill to gaslight women into believing they were talking to another woman while deciding which women got assistance to get food or not in their role in a call centre in India. The call centre was a help line for assessing additional welfare for women and families in need.

This person has told people who they are time and time again and sadly, they have been elevated to this position of authority despite it. It really is like there is new subset of males who have been declared exempt from safeguarding.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 08:11

That really tells people all they need to know Helleofabore. The males that push their way into those spaces for women; that they know they shouldn't be there. They get a thrill and a feeling of excitement about breaking those rules and taboos. This won't be just Midrul. It will be every one of them who pushes themselves into women's spaces. And there's men that support them to do this. They know too. And they don't care about women. And the women who cheerlead them on. I can only assume those women don't understand this when they're trying to be kind and inclusive. They're being gaslighted.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/12/2021 08:18

Remarkably, despite that poster, Clementine Ford is full TWAW.

I wonder if she will always be. It's such a good poster that focuses on the crux of the issue: the feelings of the being with the trauma. For anyone who missed it, I include it again.

AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?
IamSarah · 09/12/2021 08:23

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Remarkably, despite that poster, Clementine Ford is full TWAW.

I wonder if she will always be. It's such a good poster that focuses on the crux of the issue: the feelings of the being with the trauma. For anyone who missed it, I include it again.

This is a great poster, it's going on Twitter. Thanks for sharing.
OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 09/12/2021 09:37

support trans right

Which rights?

Because the right to prevent anyone else from having access to services and resources and to be tax payers but excluded and discriminated against because of political intolerance should not be a right at all, for anyone, under any circumstances.

The trans rights are met. Thoroughly. Enthusiastically. It in no way affects trans service users to permit female people of different beliefs to them to have access in the only way they can access help. To refuse them is purely down to political intolerance. A preference to see females suffer and be excluded rather than permit them to not conform and obey one specific political view. It dismisses and derogates all other protected characteristics these females may have. It is a position of bigotry and intolerance. And misogyny, as you can split the needs met/needs not met people entirely by sex .

Artichokeleaves · 09/12/2021 09:40

And that, in a nutshell, is why mixed sex women's services don't work, will never work, and why women argued from the start that making women's services mixed sex would not work.

Because in mixed sex groups, males dominate the time, resources, access, focus, staff and everything else and female needs cannot be effectively met. The female needs in a women's service become secondary and minor and openly viewed (as demonstrated on the thread by those of this political view) as much less important, less human, with less rights than the male needs.

We've tried this. We've proved (all over again) that this does not work for females. Female humans have rights too. They pay taxes too.

Artichokeleaves · 09/12/2021 09:41

And I'll add to that: it has also been proven by this one situation, all over again, that how those male people identify makes no practical difference to the outcome in a mixed sex service.

EmmaWoodhousestreehouse · 09/12/2021 09:51

@SweetPetrichor

YABU for starting another thread. We’ve had this topic already.
Clearly the issues initially raised are a fucking million miles from being addressed. There could never be enough threads about womens’ rights being eroded.

@Pixiedust138 having your penis lopped off does not make you a woman.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 09/12/2021 10:01

That graphic is really good Purgatory

SolasAnla · 09/12/2021 10:15

men should be able to examine women who have been raped

In Scotland it was more nuanced than that and IMO rather vile.

It went to the heart of the legal dilemma of asking people to deny the evidence their eyes see and their ears hear.

The aim of some in Scotland is to have Gender self ID rather than gender reassignment legislation.

The argument was about changes to legislation dealing with sexual assault and if the law used the word sex or gender

At the time I belive there were more men than women employed to carry out the examinations and evidence collection.

The State provides, suitably qualified and trained, HCP's to carry out the examination. The State would formulate policy to meet needs of the State. All witnesses, both for the State and defence, giving testimony under oath. HCP collect evidence on behalf of the State and should be a neutral witness as the accused has the right to a fair trial.

In this aim there is no conflict in using the word sex or gender.

The State would also provide, in as far as practical, for the needs of the person being examined. So in the legislation a woman asking for a woman or a man asking for a man would determine the [sex gender] or [sex gender] of the HCP.

In this aim there is a conflict in using the word sex or gender.

So should it be sex or should it be gender?

Is a person who has been sexually assaulted expected to define what their request means?
" I want a woman/man, female/male, human with vulva/penis "

Or is the witness is saying
" I consent to this examination provided it is carried out by a woman/man, female/male, human with vulva/penis "

The consent of the witness should take precedence so the word sex should be used.

As the State is taking account of a sex bias expressed by those being examined the recruitment policy will be formulated around historic data for sexual assaults and current staffing levels.

In this aim there is a conflict in using the word sex or gender.

The State need to know the sex of the person who was attacked and their preferences as to the sex of the HCP. Again the consent of the witness should take precedence so the word sex should be used

Once this is established the State would be reflected in the number of each sex who should be recruited and trained.

In this aim there is a conflict in using the word sex or gender.

They first look at the existing employees.

Then if more women are attacked and preferred to be examined by a woman then the State would actively discriminate on the basis of sex by recruiting more women than men.

They would also be actively discriminating on the basis of gender reassignment by excluding females from the classification "man" and males from the classification "woman".

The State provides a HCP to carry out the examination and giving testimony under oath.

In this aim there is a conflict in using the word sex or gender.

In a sexual assault case consent or lack of consent is the key element that needs to be proven.

The HCP will testify as to their physical examination. That's usually a physical external and internal examination of the primary witness.

The first thing they offer the court is that the witness consent to this examination or some other circumstance which resulted in the HCP giving testimony under oath.

For a HCP informed consent is not obtained if the person limits the consent in a way which specifically excluded the HCP. The HCP would take the stand and under oath testify as to their own act of sexual assault.

That was the essence of the debate.
That a HCP would carry out a "legal" sexual assault.
That a HCP could legally trick a woman or a man who had not consented.
That the HCP could testify under oath about evidence obtained by deception.

For me the question remains what type of mental gymnastic is needed to argue that the word gender should replace sex in any legislation which needs consent?

IamSarah · 09/12/2021 11:19

Everything @Artichokeleaves said with bells on. Particularly this:

The trans rights are met. Thoroughly. Enthusiastically. It in no way affects trans service users to permit female people of different beliefs to them to have access in the only way they can access help.

Women who believe TWAW and who want to be good allies are more than welcome to join them in all the other mixed sex women's groups. Nobody is trying to stop those groups or take that option away.

It's also worth mentioning that when I suggested creating the additional support group just for biological women I suggested it was arranged discreetly and sensitively. It could have simply been called a 'closed peer support group' meaning group members don't come and go, it's always the same people. Those people would just happen to all be biologically female.

Therefore there would be absolutely no reason for trans clients to even know that this group existed and they were excluded from it.

Even this was a step too far for my centre. Because of course trans women are the most marginalised in society.

OP posts:
VestofAbsurdity · 09/12/2021 11:27

Everything @Artichokeleaves said with bells on.

Yes. As always Artichokeleaves absolutely nails it.