AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

[IamSarah]

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

Also note that I have not mentioned any official request to explain what we do for transmen. Because we have never, ever been asked. Isn't that mad? We have never, as a single ex service, been asked how we cater for part of that cohort!

Transmen the group that rarely, if ever, gets mentioned or thought about reason being that they are of the female sex. Yet, those of the male sex always, always front and centre.

you're a trans woman you'd probably want to opt for the female group because you believe you're a woman, not a man.

So, if we changed the language to male only and female only group, that would mean those males would go to the male only groups if no trans groups were available?

Because, to repeat, we are constantly told that trans people are no longer denying their sex.

Rape and sexual assault are overwhelmingly sex based problems, which women and girls experience more. I'd like to see the wishes of most survivors (when research has been done) taken into account and a legal obligation for local authorities and government to fund a female only space as well as anything additional.

@CombatBarbie

Wow, I don't understand anyone thinking that this wouldn't be an issue!!?? WTF so I'm guessing all men identifying as females can go to breastfeeding groups.....

It depends what the options are really doesn't it. If there is a trans group option available then that seems like the better fit but if it's the choice between a male group or a female group and you're a trans woman you'd probably want to opt for the female group because you believe you're a woman, not a man.

Yes, but why should one male's belief that they are a woman be taken seriously, but the women's belief that the transwoman is male not be taken seriously?

I mean, a transwoman can't be anything other than male, that's what the word 'transwoman' means. Someone born male. So this is quite simply one person's belief trumping the belief of another's.

[quote Pixiedust138]@Helleofabore gender identity. That's the thing isn't it. If you ask a trans person what makes them a woman they will say that it's their gender identity rather than about their sexual organs. Sex is male or female. Gender identity is man, woman, trans, non binary etc.[/quote]
Yes. 'Gender identity' is a feeling. 'Sex' is a fact.

[quote Pixiedust138]@Helleofabore gender identity. That's the thing isn't it. If you ask a trans person what makes them a woman they will say that it's their gender identity rather than about their sexual organs. Sex is male or female. Gender identity is man, woman, trans, non binary etc.[/quote]
And Pixie, does 'gender identity' mean that that person has the same experiences as the opposite sex?

And you know that there are a small group of males who like to breach the boundaries, sex and other boundaries, of females. Or do you think that transitioning reduces this in any way?

Plus why is it that women need to give up their need for privacy away from males because one might say they are a woman?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Rape and sexual assault are overwhelmingly sex based problems, which women and girls experience more. I'd like to see the wishes of most survivors (when research has been done) taken into account and a legal obligation for local authorities and government to fund a female only space as well as anything additional.

This is such a difficult and emotive subject. It's going to depend who you have in the room and on their own views. Some women would feel extremely uncomfortable sharing a space with a trans woman, other would feel differently. Until legislation decides what the rules are going to be then maybe the only fair option is for decisions to be made on a case by case basis and for women to be asked what their preference is?

@ArabellaScott you'll see from my comments above I'm in no way suggesting that the trans woman is priority over a cis woman.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Rape and sexual assault are overwhelmingly sex based problems, which women and girls experience more. I'd like to see the wishes of most survivors (when research has been done) taken into account and a legal obligation for local authorities and government to fund a female only space as well as anything additional.

It would be dead interesting to do anonymous surveys for service users.

I think the fact no one asks service users and its people in privileged positions and lgbt lobby groups who are making the funding decisions in the absence of this thats telling in terms of oppression.

@Helenluvsrob

I would ask if there are make only rape survivors groups ,

Yes, of course there are.

Do you also want to know who sets them up, who finds funding for them? Who ensures they get staffed, supported and continue to run?

Women who set up the female services.

Men start them off, may staff them, be the public face of them etc, But women like me do the funding work, the nitty gritty either directly or because we are asked to give our time and expertise as support in setting them up... and then we never bloody leave!

Not all of them obviously. But of the 4 I am directly aware of... I have supported 3 of them as far as funding and policy remits go. The organisation I work for supports 2 of them, financially and with training, and all of them have, or had, a woman from one of the womens services as board member for years.

Many men set up similar services. But there just aren't as many men willing to continue them in the long term, or come forward to use them. There are many studies into this and a lot of support waiting for when the need is clarified. far more good will than I have seen for expanding, or even maintaining, single sex female services.

To steal a thought - google it

Survivors UK
National Male Survivors Helpline
Lost of local county level sevcies
Mankind and Men's Advice Line
Male - Rape Org

The government's Male Rape Support Fund kick started a lot of services.

And it is a very different kind of service to that for women.

decisions to be made on a case by case basis and for women to be asked what their preference is

But women are not being asked. We are being told to accept it or leave women only spaces!

At every fucking stage of this women are disadvantaged.

*more likely to be raped

*less likely to be able to fight off attacker
*chance of pregnancy
*socialised to feel shame & blame self
*potentially lifelong issues with being around males in vulnerable situations eg healthcare
*if hetero, potentially lifelong issues with intimacy
*if able to report to police, face re traumatising interviews and physical examinations
*if case gets to court, face having private life, personality and appearance torn apart, for a very low chance of conviction.

*And now, in 2021, the near impossibility of finding solace in single sex support (or single sex swimming, bookclubs, exercise classes, craft clubs, breastfeeding & maternity clubs - you name it, they've ALL been colonised).

Every single issue on this list is a problem created by males and the misogynist systems they have built.

I refuse to believe all transwomen support this disgusting degradation of women. Those of you who say transwomen need to do this to women are doing trans rights no favours at all by painting transwomen as selfish, out of control misogynists.

@NeedsCharging

decisions to be made on a case by case basis and for women to be asked what their preference is

But women are not being asked. We are being told to accept it or leave women only spaces!

That I don't agree with.

Until legislation decides what the rules are going to be

The Act already has a provision for these scenarios. this is specifically listed as an example.

Why do you think that this requires further legislation?

It requires organisations to enact the legislation. And it requires funding that is based on the removal of this clause to be called out for being harmful to women. Because it is.

@Pixiedust138

From all of the data I have seen post-op males retain their penis, it's surgically altered from its natural shape.
Per previous posters most males retain their penis in its natural form.

You appear to believe that there are two distinct groups of males when it comes to this service amd that one group can be excluded from a service yet another group should not be.

My interest is around what elements are used to gatekeep access to the service.

Agree @Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I feel so sorry for victims of rape, everyone should be able to access appropriate support in a timely way. An 18 month wait is not support.

The position of the centre is illogical. If trans women are women, why do they need their own dedicated rape survivors support group? The existence of the group seems to acknowledge that at least some of the therapy needs of trans women are distinct from other groups. Im all for trans women having their own dedicated support if it’s needed, but natal born women and trans men should each have the same.

@Stompythedinosaur "That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain."

How does any woman know whether the man is a trans woman or a man, what is the definition/criteria?

The man in Sarah's group looked, acted, dressed like a man but said they were a woman.

Is it only if the man is wearing pink, or has long hair, or has shaved their legs that we should put aside our feelings and discomfort and pretend to believe that person is actually a woman?

If their outfit is only 50% stereotypically female are we allowed to acknowledge truth, state facts, voice our discomfort and have our needs met?

That I don't agree with.

That's what happened to the OP Pixie.

That's what's happening to women in MH units, in prisons and in everyday life, in healthcare when using toilets and changing rooms. Women are not being asked. We are called disgusting names and told to stay at home!

To be fair, I think that Pixie is agreeing that what has happened to Sarah is not acceptable.

@Helleofabore

To be fair, I think that Pixie is agreeing that what has happened to Sarah is not acceptable.

but I could be wrong.... and happy to be told I am wrong.

urbanbhudda To respond, appreciate you are off out and won't be back to the thread tonight:

I think there needs to be a much more nuanced discussion and debate around these questions. I am worried by the erosion of safe places and sports for girls particularly, but the either/or playground shouting will get us nowhere.

Defending the rights of women to spaces, services and sports is a world away from 'playground shouting'.

To answer your questions

i) I think it's more than 80% actually.

I was being generous.

ii) I would expect the group leader to know and to have had confirmation from the hospital that performed the surgery. Or something equally rigourous.

How? That information is medically confidential. You can't even ask if someone has a GRC as that is a Top Secret document asking is almost akin to breaking national security. It is not even a requirement of the GRA that a GRC holder should have surgery so even if you could ask if they have a GRC it would prove nothing.

iii) I don't think a person who has elected to have surgery to remove their penis and to have female surgery can be counted as a man. I would see her as a woman.

I wouldn't, I would see them as a transwoman, that is what they are. No-one can change sex, even the GRC is a fudge and is termed a 'legal fiction'. What do you mean by female surgery? A woman is not a modified man.

I'm sorry I can't discuss this more fully just now but it's drinks at a neighbour's and I'm already late.

Enjoy!

@Stompythedinosaur I think you’ll find that most nhs workers support safe spaces for victims of sexual violence to express themselves freely! @IamSarah hasn’t been allowed access to that.
You don’t speak for everyone within the NHS!

Gatekeeping is always interesting.

The women who use our service gatekeep the service. We write and update our policies guided by them. That's why we have a floor for women with older kids, including young men (oldest was, I think, 23, at a local university). It has separate access (very separate) and they never enter any other part of the buildings.

Funding gatekeeps. Is it within our funding partners remit? Does it sit within our stated remit? Do we or our suser want it to?

I have tried to work oiut that happened to the centre Sarah accessed and can't imagine how that would happen here.

Then I remember we are all older, part of our umbrella group is church based, we are rural, in a very deprived area with low literacy rates and high levels of unemployment and non/low English speaking residents. Maybe it isn't so suprising that few have the time or energy to devote to anything other than surviving week to week.

YADNBU and i'm so sad you were told that.
Again, men getting priority over women.

[quote Pixiedust138]@ArabellaScott you'll see from my comments above I'm in no way suggesting that the trans woman is priority over a cis woman. [/quote]
Please stop using the offensive and insulting term 'cis'.