To doubt parents who say baby crying for one minute is cruel

[LoathlyLady]

Just read a few posts about sleep and frankly don’t believe some of the responses. People saying that leaving a 12 month old to cry for very short periods (1-5 mins) is cruel and they could never do it.. really??

Ofcourse I find it horrible to listen to my 1yo son get upset but there are times when I simply can’t go to him immediately (car seat!) and recently we’ve found that letting him cry for 3 mins or so at bedtime rather than feeding to sleep seems to help with his overall sleep and mood. Are these people really saying that they never let their baby cry for more than a few seconds? Or is this just bullshit to make other mums feel terrible?

Whining or crying? There’s a huge difference as far as I’m concerned.

I leave my 10 month old baby whining for a couple of minutes sometimes, but if he’s crying I go straight to him (or in a car I soothe him verbally).

Everyone is different but this works for us.

Solidarity shout out to all the PPs who can’t handle the car seat crying. I honestly break out in a sweat with the effort of staying calm while baby wails in the back. It really is a physical response

Yes!!! This!!!!

You're confusing several different things.

No I never chose to leave my child to cry when they were asking for me. This isn't the same as not being able to pick up a child who is crying in a car seat for example.

It's neither trolling nor martyrdom. It's a different way of parenting to those who make a decision to leave a baby to cry not because the baby is happier to be left to it or overtired and just grizzling but because they're trying to break a behaviour.

@Roseandgeranium

Solidarity shout out to all the PPs who can’t handle the car seat crying. I honestly break out in a sweat with the effort of staying calm while baby wails in the back. It really is a physical response.

Oh lordy. My DS loathed the car seat. I mean absolutely despised it. He had terrible separation anxiety anyway but the car seat, particularly for a vomity little baby, was awful. He wouldn't cry, he'd scream with anguish. He would be sweating, shaking, sobbing and just such a mess. I can't tell you how much it hurt me to hear him on the rare occasion I had no choice but to drive somewhere.

@ShowOfHands

Both of my sons were the same! It’s highly traumatic

I always go/went to mine when they cried, and yes I do think intentionally leaving them is mean (and 5 minutes is a long time to cry), Obviouslydifferent if you physicallycan'tget to them, but that never really happened to me. In the carseat sanario I talk / sing to reassure them so although I can't always stop them from crying, at least they know I'm close by and haven't abandoned them. When they were babies either myself or DH would sit in the back for long journeys (or pull over and move to back).

If I was alone with baby and toddler, and they were both crying I'd just hug one in each arm. Plus my youngest spent a lot of the time in the sling, so she could feed while I sorted whatever was wrong with the oldest. Obviously they still cry, all babies do, and often for more then a few minutes. For me the is a massive difference between crying while someone is trying to help (inevitable), and crying alone until you give up on any help coming (cruel imo).

I had a baby who cried for 8 hours a day solid. He still cried even when you'd fed him, changed him, held him, tried to put him down for a nap (because he didn't do naps), wandered around the house with him, gone for a walk in the pram with him, handed him over to another adult, taken him out in the car, asked him politely to stop and of course, given him the dummy. HE JUST DIDN'T STOP CRYING.

He's 8 now and remembers none of this. But I still do. There were times when I left him to cry after I had tried all else. Because I was on my knees. I'd never judge another parent for doing the same because I know that no one makes the decision to leave their crying baby for any reason other than they need to. Either to keep themselves or their baby safe.

But yes, no one on MN would ever dream of letting their baby (who clearly was nothing like mine) cry for even a second. They will happily gloat in the face of parents who are mentally left with no other choice than to consider it. Then the next week ask why some people harm their own children.

@ShowOfHands
Oh poor you! It’s hideous even when you know they’re basically fine and will probably fall asleep in 5 minutes or so. Feeling your pain here for sure.

People have to do what they have to do, and sleep deprivation is brutal, and I 'waited it out' and I'm glad I did but honestly, the extent to which I might have been a kinder, calmer, more fun mum if I hadn't been so fucking knackered might have outweighed the benefits of sleeping cuddled up all night long.

But, yeah, I do think it's pretty cruel to deliberately refuse to comfort a baby who is alone and frightened or sad or tired or cross. Maybe it's a necessary cruelty at times, but it's not a neutral thing.

I didn't drive, so have very few other examples to draw on of when I had no choice but to leave a baby sobbing. I have two children, so sometimes one had to wait, but mostly I had two arms and could cuddle a toddler who'd fallen over whilst still listening attentively to a monologuing older child.

There is of course no evidence of harm, but as I understand it, studies reliably show show only two-thirds of the population have a secure attachment pattern. I don't conclude from this that sleep training is the cause (and I don't conflate attachment theory and attachment parenting- kindness, empathy, consistency and responsiveness doesn't have to involve bedsharing or slings or bf on demand or whatever), but I do remember it whenever people shrug and say "oh, by the time they're five you can't tell, they're all happy, blah blah".

I think there has to be space to say "this is not a biologically normal way of parenting, but we don't have our village any more and it's really fucking hard and maternal mental health matters too". Maybe the place to say that is not where desperately tired parents are seeking advice on sleep training? I don't know, I don't read those threads.

@Thegreencup

I had a baby who cried for 8 hours a day solid. He still cried even when you'd fed him, changed him, held him, tried to put him down for a nap (because he didn't do naps), wandered around the house with him, gone for a walk in the pram with him, handed him over to another adult, taken him out in the car, asked him politely to stop and of course, given him the dummy. HE JUST DIDN'T STOP CRYING.

He's 8 now and remembers none of this. But I still do. There were times when I left him to cry after I had tried all else. Because I was on my knees. I'd never judge another parent for doing the same because I know that no one makes the decision to leave their crying baby for any reason other than they need to. Either to keep themselves or their baby safe.

But yes, no one on MN would ever dream of letting their baby (who clearly was nothing like mine) cry for even a second. They will happily gloat in the face of parents who are mentally left with no other choice than to consider it. Then the next week ask why some people harm their own children.

Crikey this sounds like actual hell. Of course you need to step away when a baby’s like this. Sorry you went through that.

Crying is an output. It’s not inevitable. It’s very possible that if you have only one child to look after that you could do everything 100% to prevent them from crying. This is where pfb comes from - I have friends who don’t drive their dc, don’t force them into pushchairs (and so are housebound & kids don’t go anywhere). I don’t think closing of a child’s world or experiences to prevent them from crying is a stellar example of parenting. And research shows it’s the children with parents like this who are more likely to suffer from anxiety as they get older.

The truth is, as a parent, part of our job is to help kids push their boundaries in safe ways.

Well I never deliberately left mine to cry but obviously there were times that they were left to cry. Car seat, when I desperately needed the loo, when walking home with the buggy when they’re desperate for a feed but it’s 2 degrees outside and home is only 5 minutes away, etc.

I realise there’s a difference from the adult’s point of view but from the baby’s point of view I can’t see that there’s any difference between being left to cry while sleep training and being left to cry for a few minutes in a car seat or while you comfort their older sibling who’s cut their knee.

I wouldn't leave an adult crying alone in a room, so I certainly don't leave DD.

Bad news for these precious people; life is constant discomfort. Classic precious and martyred parenting. Your immediate wants and desires may well not be attended to immediately by others.

@Strokethefurrywall

Horses for courses - DS1 was so overtired by the time we did controlled crying at 13 months that he didn’t want me anywhere near him, even when I went in to soothe him. It was cruller to have him wake multiple times every 90 minutes at night unable to self soothe, than it was leaving him to cry in slightly longer increments.

Ds2 was a different kettle of fish and only want to fall asleep in my arms whilst staring into my eyes and holding my face. Leaving him to cry tore my heart apart because he just wanted to be cuddled.

It totally depends on the baby you have and how you feel about the crying. As tiny babies mine weren’t big criers generally, maybe grizzled for a feed but no prolonged yells. I also knew their different cries. “Hungry”, “don’t leave me”, “fuck off mum I just want to sleep”, “teething”, “hurt” etc etc. Some I would leave for a few minutes, others I didn’t.

My DD is as you describe. She loves cuddles when calm but if she is tired, cuddling just frustrates the shit out of her. Completely different to my son. Even as a fairly small baby, she preferred for me to just lie next to her where she could see me in the Next to me, rather than rock her to sleep as I was trying to do.

I just can’t get animated about this. Adults that lay beside the cot holding their children’s hands until they sleep - go for it if that’s how you want to spend your evening. Adults who co-sleep with their kids until they’re in secondary - if you’re both happy, why not? Equally parents who decided to adopt a method where the child self settles -fantastic, as long as it’s worked and everyone gets their sleep. Marvellous.

Personally I have no memory of any of it. I was so sleep deprived for years I can’t remember much of what happened on any given night. I know I still have sleep anxiety due to DC2 SCREAMING across the whole night intermittently. There were times when I crawled on my hands and knees to him due to three hours interrupted sleep a night. The hallucinating got so bad in the end I almost lost my mind. If any sleep training had worked I’d have done it in a heartbeat.

I really can't bear the smug tediousness of people who say that a baby crying is cruel - babies cry - I did 'controlled crying ' ie. didn't pick the baby up the moment they cried from about 8 months because I was sobbing with sleep deprivation and my son was waking every half an hour ALL NIGHT.

When I stopped picking him up so quickly I realised I was actually interfering with his ability to go back to sleep - he cried a bit, rolled around fell asleep - then stopped waking! sleep training WORKS for many babies - my son cried much much less within a few days than he was doing before I did the sleep training. He was happy, I was usually in the room soothing him by patting him etc -

Babies/ young toddlers are totally capable of having ab it of a cry at nap time or bedtime as they fall asleep and it is not always in distress.

Very Wise Neil

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair

People have to do what they have to do, and sleep deprivation is brutal, and I 'waited it out' and I'm glad I did but honestly, the extent to which I might have been a kinder, calmer, more fun mum if I hadn't been so fucking knackered might have outweighed the benefits of sleeping cuddled up all night long.

But, yeah, I do think it's pretty cruel to deliberately refuse to comfort a baby who is alone and frightened or sad or tired or cross. Maybe it's a necessary cruelty at times, but it's not a neutral thing.

I didn't drive, so have very few other examples to draw on of when I had no choice but to leave a baby sobbing. I have two children, so sometimes one had to wait, but mostly I had two arms and could cuddle a toddler who'd fallen over whilst still listening attentively to a monologuing older child.

There is of course no evidence of harm, but as I understand it, studies reliably show show only two-thirds of the population have a secure attachment pattern. I don't conclude from this that sleep training is the cause (and I don't conflate attachment theory and attachment parenting- kindness, empathy, consistency and responsiveness doesn't have to involve bedsharing or slings or bf on demand or whatever), but I do remember it whenever people shrug and say "oh, by the time they're five you can't tell, they're all happy, blah blah".

I think there has to be space to say "this is not a biologically normal way of parenting, but we don't have our village any more and it's really fucking hard and maternal mental health matters too". Maybe the place to say that is not where desperately tired parents are seeking advice on sleep training? I don't know, I don't read those threads.

Some scientists believe pnd is an evolutionary way for mothers to weed out week offspring - biologically mothers are probably supposed to abandon babies that cry too much or if they can’t breastfeed painlessly. So I don’t buy biological theories of parenting at all. EVERYTHING about how we parent is unatural.

For me it depends on the motivation.
Stepping away from crying child because you're about to lose it - not cruel.
Not being able to soothe child because you are dealing with other child/have to do something crucial that absolutely can't wait/are driving - not cruel.
Leaving child alone in the dark crying because you're trying to 'teach them' to sleep - mega cruel in my opinion

I don't think it's bullshit I think they do walk among us! However I think they're either extremely anxious parents or the ones who mis-interpret attachment theory.

There's a school of thought that would put them in the "well meaning but not doing the best for their child" category. Crying is communication and trying to stop a child crying by any means is not respectful parenting. I always recommend Janet Lansbury on here but she saved my sanity when my DDs were little and stopped me sliding down the anxious parent path so I'll mention her again in case it's saves another mother!

@NorthSouthcatlady

Bad news for these precious people; life is constant discomfort. Classic precious and martyred parenting. Your immediate wants and desires may well not be attended to immediately by others.

Or, you know, some parents just parent differently from you.

So I think it’s cruel to leave DS to cry. Every time he cries, I respond right away, apart from when we’re in the car and I really really struggle with that. DS is a very hysterical crier so I feel like leaving him is being unnecessarily cruel.

But honestly, I have never ever ever had that thought about another parent. Whenever someone has told me they did CIO or controlled crying, I’ve been curious about how it went and have never judged them for it. So I think it’s cruel for my child, but don’t think that for anyone else’s.

I thunk when parents say that they're talking about sleep training or just being pedantic. I'd never purposely let my baby cry for a while but he hated being the car for the first 6 months and would scream sometimes, obviously I couldn't do anything about it until we could stop at a services or the like so had to let him cry. It's not cruel If it's necessity imo.

There is clearly as much smugness and judgement from the other side too. Parents who choose not to sleep train have been called martyrs and precious on this thread already.