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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Would you want capital punishment back?

542 replies

Mynameisnew · 06/12/2021 02:07

There are people who do such vile things in this country and are jailed for a decade or two. Perhaps released for good behaviour a bit earlier.

Afaik CP was stopped amongst other reasons because there were a number of errors made and innocent people being convicted.

But these days with DNA proof or cases where it is on cctv /phone messages or has been admitted (thinking of Emma Tustin)

Would it not make a good deterrent? Even if one person is saved from being murdered...

I appreciate that in the USA people still commit murder, but they also have guns there which means a higher incidence of spur of the moment violence.

But a sustained campaign of abuse - would such an abuser as Tustin have been put off if CP was an option, even if very rarely used?

It's easy for me to say that I would be deterred, but I'm not a psychopathic and sadistic person so the issue is, it's hard to say if people like that would be put off such a crime. Perhaps it doesn't even enter their heads that it's wrong.

OP posts:
Idolovetrees · 06/12/2021 10:08

No I don't think it is right to kill anybody regardless of what they have done.

Toofuckingearly · 06/12/2021 10:09

100 % no

Guavaf1sh · 06/12/2021 10:09

As Barack Obama said in his second book - sometimes the abhorrence of a particular crime is such that capital punishment is the only way for society to express its anger and indignation. So it’s for the good of society that it is done in certain very specific cases. Would I be pleased to see Tustin hanged? Yes. It seems like the right thing. For everyone. Including her

BalladOfBarryAndFreda · 06/12/2021 10:10

No.

PicsInRed · 06/12/2021 10:12

@Guavaf1sh

As Barack Obama said in his second book - sometimes the abhorrence of a particular crime is such that capital punishment is the only way for society to express its anger and indignation. So it’s for the good of society that it is done in certain very specific cases. Would I be pleased to see Tustin hanged? Yes. It seems like the right thing. For everyone. Including her
So you'll hang the assassin, how about the man who gave the order.

Is it not more abhorrent that the child's own father encouraged, participated, celebrated the abuse, then sent a message "just end him" to the person who dealt the final blow?

The problem is that true evil often uses others' hands.

FuckinGoddess · 06/12/2021 10:15

Also if it makes you feel any better, Tustin is already being bullied by fellow inmates - having salt thrown at her, for example, and I’m fairly sure there’s more waiting for her as time goes on. 😊

As things are, Tustin has decades at least or maybe a lifetime of being bullied and suffering ahead of her. If she was killed, she would not suffer and would not need to worry about being bullied. She would feel no fear, no anxiety, no sadness, no stress, no pain, nothing. Cause she’s be dead. Which I too would choose if the alternative was suffering... that’s why Tustin must live.

ArabellaScott · 06/12/2021 10:15

There is no credible argument for the death penalty, and many very strong arguments against it.

Justheretoaskaquestion91 · 06/12/2021 10:16

Where are people getting this info re Tustin?

afaloren · 06/12/2021 10:17

Absolutely not, and it has nothing to do with people maybe being found innocent later. I am just fundamentally opposed, regardless of guilt. I do understand that there are some crimes which seem to horrific imprisonment doesn’t seem like ‘enough’ but in a civilised society there is no place for CP.

CSJobseeker · 06/12/2021 10:18

I suspect some jurors might be reluctant to convict if they thought execution was a likely outcome

This is true. A jury is likely to subconsciously set a higher burden of proof if they know that a conviction will lead to death. So more killers will be found not guilty.

Think about it - you're a juror, and you're pretty sure the person you are trying is guilty. Lets say you're 90-95% sure. That's probably beyond reasonable doubt, and normally enough to make you vote 'guilty, but is it enough to make you sign their death warrant?

CSJobseeker · 06/12/2021 10:19

I think I've read that there is evidence that this was the effect when CP was last legal. Not sure where I read it though.

OooohAhhhh · 06/12/2021 10:20

No, because of miscarriages of justice. The risk is too big. There have been plenty in the past.
Also it is very unethical. The law says murder is a crime, yet the state take it upon themselves to murder people. It gains nothing, as people still continue to commit crimes punishable by death. There is no evidence to say capital punishment works. The system needs to look into rehabilitation for offenders more. This shows more success than the death penalty. I'm not talking about those that have committed the worse crimes to be let back into society, but more concentrating on programmes for adults in jail, courses, employment within jail etc. This has the potential to stop them from committing crime within prison also, as they feel a sense of self worth etc.
Also there is a psychological reason as well, many people who commit the worse crimes have had a troubled childhood. There is usually a trail relating back to their childhood. This has been proven to have a negative psychological effect later on in life. As a result they repel these negative emotions later on in life, by committing crime. They have developed mental health issues, so instead of the state just killing them they are overlooking psychological issues. These people need help.
The death penalty will never return in the UK.
Many countries around the world are starting to abolish the death penalty too.

DrSbaitso · 06/12/2021 10:21

A jury is likely to subconsciously set a higher burden of proof if they know that a conviction will lead to death.

If I were a juror, there'd be nothing subconscious about it. I'd be very aware and deliberate in doing it.

NightmareSlashDelightful · 06/12/2021 10:21

@afaloren

Absolutely not, and it has nothing to do with people maybe being found innocent later. I am just fundamentally opposed, regardless of guilt. I do understand that there are some crimes which seem to horrific imprisonment doesn’t seem like ‘enough’ but in a civilised society there is no place for CP.
Agree.

I think as a civilised and compassionate society we have to accept that a chunk of our money and time resources must go towards responsibly dealing people who operate outside of it.

And yes, I do believe that includes the humane treatment of prisoners, attempts at rehabilitation (which doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means) and a robust courts and justice system, with checks and balances for human error and abuses.

jaffacakesareepic · 06/12/2021 10:23

In my (inexpert opinion) there are 4 broad categories of criminals:

Crimes that happen in a moment that if that moment hadn't happened, those people would probably never have been criminals e.g.
A lapse of concentration when driving
Getting pulled into a bar fight not of your making and killing someone because they had an unexpected medical condition
An abused person killing their abuser (not exactly the same, but essentially the abused person would be unlikely to be a criminal if they weren't being abused)
etc

Longer sentencing and capital punishment will not reduce this

More educations about consequences, greater police presence (unbiased police presence), greater funding for domestic violence victims, earlier better police intervention may help. Also potentially more education in youngsters, particularly boys to help encourage them not to use violence as a solution.

This is where a prison sentence is almost more of a penance than anything else, a debt to society because these people are highly unlikely to commit another crime.

Crimes of circumstance
If you put people in poverty, with little to no job opportunities, poor educations, a lack of positive role models, with parents who have little time to parent due to trying to survive and provide in poverty, then crime is all but inevitable to an extent.

Longer sentencing and capital punishment will not reduce this.

Better benefits, no zero hours contracts, a living minimum wage, long term investment in education in deprived areas, smaller class sizes, government incentives to bring jobs and free/subsidised sporting options. Bring in IT companies to teach coding, sports companies to teach sports, construction companies to teach construction skills etc. Provide real tangible ways for people to escape poverty and crime. It wont cut down all crime it will reduce it.

If it gets to prison then this is where rehabilitation is much more likely to reduce re-offending than a pure punishment

People with mental illnesses which now end up in the prison system due to poor funding of support services

Longer sentencing and capital punishment will not reduce this type of crime.

Greater funding in mental health, alcoholic and drug rehabilitation services etc will do. Anyone can end up in this category, everyone who has ever had an alcoholic drink had the potential to be an alcoholic, its just medically they aren't. There are parts of the brain/genes etc which dictate can this. And people can be helped, not thrown in prison then released to start the same cycle again.

This is where medical rehabilitation is of more benefit than punishment

Psychopaths
People who rape and kill and fight and steal because they can. Not because they need to, or have been brought up to but because there is something wrong in their brain which means they do.

Longer sentences and capital punishment will not deter these people.

However longer sentences are potentially the only way to prevent reoffences happening. (My personal opinion is that psychopaths are in fact a subset of group 3, in that its a brain wiring issue and a secure medical facility where people are not released unless their medical, in this case mental, issue is shown to be cured, in the same way as people who end up in institutions for crimes due to medical insanity etc, would be the appropriate result)

In general longer sentencing will not prove a deterrent. However early years intervention, money spent on eradicating poverty, greater opportunity and proper rehabilitation can.

So if you are advocating money spent on longer sentencing over money spent on preventing punishment then you are essentially enjoying meting out punishment over stopping crime, that does not make you a good person.

Biscuitsneeded · 06/12/2021 10:23

God no. It's barbaric, and absolutely not a deterrent, otherwise those US states that still have the death penalty would have no murders, which clearly isn't the case.

OooohAhhhh · 06/12/2021 10:24

Also the media play a very influential part on wether someone gets a fair trial or not.

Just10moreminutesplease · 06/12/2021 10:24

No, it doesn’t work as a deterrent and I don’t believe anyone has the right to decide whether a person lives or dies. And that’s without considering the possibility of false convictions.

Of course, when child murderers etc are in the news, I want them to be executed… but that doesn’t make it the right choice.

LindaEllen · 06/12/2021 10:25

If life imprisonment isn't a deterrent then I don't see how CP would be, to be honest.

The issue is that the people who commit such crimes aren't particularly bothered by deterrents. It might sound like it would reduce crime from our POV, but we're not (or at least I'm not!) the kind of person who would murder someone. People with that mindset and temperament wouldn't be deterred.

PenguinTattoo · 06/12/2021 10:26

No.

jaffacakesareepic · 06/12/2021 10:26

Also, we have a justice system which is systemically racist and sexist, where women and people of colour get handed out disproportionally harsher sentences than white men for example.

So you are looking and a justice system that is more likely to kill a black man than a white man if you want capital punishment.

How about the people who are supposed to be the good guys actually get their house in order first, instead of essentially murdering people for the colour of their skin?

Antsgomarching · 06/12/2021 10:29

I do think some people are so dangerous to others that they shouldn’t be allowed out of prison though.

Tal45 · 06/12/2021 10:30

There isn't enough evidence to say whether the death penalty is a deterrent or not in the US as so few people out of the total population are given a death sentence. There will always be people who think they can get away with it one way or another though, otherwise surely having to spend years in prison would be a deterrent.

I think in this day and age though, with DNA testing/technology, miscarriages of justice could be prevented if you only give black and white cases the death penalty rather than those 'without reasonable doubt', ie only those with concrete/physical proof.

People always think of the US when they talk about people be wrongly given the death penalty and often they are either pre DNA or they are cases where there's a bit of a grey area ie relying on people's statements or they are cases of probable racism.

If you read about Nathaniel Woods on wiki for example, a black man involved in drugs, he surrendered to police in a crack den but another man came down and shot 3 officers. The shooter said Nathaniel was innocent but the prosecution said he had lured the officers to their death. In a majority black area only two of the jurors were black and the jury voted 10-2 in favour of execution. In Alabama there only has to be a majority and he was executed in 2020.

So what I see from the US is that potentially the biggest problems with the death penalty are bigotry, bias and presumption. The other issue is the years of appeals it takes to even get to that point. I like the idea of a quick execution of anyone like Tustin who is proved without any doubt to have abused a child but in reality it just doesn't work that simply. Nathaniel Woods was on death row for 15 years, Kerry Spencer who actually pulled the trigger is still on death row now awaiting execution. There is no quick, clean end.

Tal45 · 06/12/2021 10:33

@Biscuitsneeded

God no. It's barbaric, and absolutely not a deterrent, otherwise those US states that still have the death penalty would have no murders, which clearly isn't the case.
A deterrent doesn't mean nobody does it though. It could mean that only half as many people do it for example.
Justheretoaskaquestion91 · 06/12/2021 10:37

Also, we have a justice system which is systemically racist and sexist, where women and people of colour get handed out disproportionally harsher sentences than white men for example

What?!?! Racist, yes. It’s a very valid point. Sexist, yes, against men! Men get far harsher sentences than women!