Would you want capital punishment back?

[Mynameisnew]

There are people who do such vile things in this country and are jailed for a decade or two. Perhaps released for good behaviour a bit earlier.

Afaik CP was stopped amongst other reasons because there were a number of errors made and innocent people being convicted.

But these days with DNA proof or cases where it is on cctv /phone messages or has been admitted (thinking of Emma Tustin)

Would it not make a good deterrent? Even if one person is saved from being murdered...

I appreciate that in the USA people still commit murder, but they also have guns there which means a higher incidence of spur of the moment violence.

But a sustained campaign of abuse - would such an abuser as Tustin have been put off if CP was an option, even if very rarely used?

It's easy for me to say that I would be deterred, but I'm not a psychopathic and sadistic person so the issue is, it's hard to say if people like that would be put off such a crime. Perhaps it doesn't even enter their heads that it's wrong.

@CounsellorTroi

Never. No place for it in a civilised society.

This

Where capital punishment exists people are more likely to murder their victims to avoid capture. Eg in India ever since capital punishment was introduced for rape (including child rape) the rate of murders of victims has also increased. One of my cousins is a Police Inspector and he said he and his colleagues have dealt with more female and child murders (that have combined rape etc) after the legal changes were introduced than before; whereas previously when a child was kidnapped they knew they could have 24 hours to find them before they were were harmed.

But from an emotional perspective, if it didn’t result in more murders, then yes I would love to see it return for the worst crimes. But then, having said that, I’m sure Arthur’s murderers will need to watch their backs in prison as murdering them may become a badge of honour to all the other inmates & that lifetime of terror might be a more appropriate punishment.

Tustin attempted suicide - capital punishment would be a gift to her, you’d be giving her what she wants.

Do you really want to give her what she wants, an easy way out, so she won’t have to live out her days behind bars, and really pay for what she’s done?

There are people that don't deserve to live.

However I can't support the death penalty as I believe asking someone to kill someone else in order to deliver this judgement will permanently harm them.

I don't think it is right to ask that of anyone and I would be uncomfortable with people that volunteered to deliver a death sentence

i don't think CP can be much of a deterrent sadly. These people either think they are too clever, that they'd get a lighter sentence, or simply don't care/can't stop themselves.

What it could improve though is:

a) Murderers not able to come out after lenient, concurrent sentences and murder again.

b) Prisons won't be so overcrowded

c) Huge amounts of tax payers' money saved, rather than spent on keeping monsters alive. That money better spent on children services.

If CP is to come back though, must be only in 100% proven, particularly awful cases (e.g. Cousens, Hughes and Tustin).

No, never.

I understand the human urge for revenge when they see an appalling wrong/crime committed. I feel it myself and half imagine how satisfying it might be to really hurt someone back after seeing them hurt another.

But I want and need the law to be better than that.

I'm also afraid that she won't have too bad of a time in prison

She'll be in a prison filled with women who are separated from their children - and she abused and murdered a little boy. She'll be eviscerated.

I just can’t say yes to it I’m afraid. It doesn’t matter if only one innocent person every century is put to death, it’s one too many. Think about it, if someone is put into jail at 18 and knows they’ve got 50 plus years in jail, surely it’s more of a punishment to be stuck in a 6x9 cell eating shit food. Imagine the boredom and depression, sounds like hell on Earth to me. Personally, I’d rather be executed so don’t give them the easy way out.

@Penners99

Yes, in an instant.

Your eagerness to see people murdered by the state is pretty disturbing.

Even Albert Pierrepoint, the UK's last hangman stated that capital punishment wasn't a deterrent. He even had to hang someone who personally knew Albert, it hadn't deterred him from murdering.
However in cases where it's so cut and dried, like Emma Tustin or Ian Huntley I'd have no objection purely on a monetary basis. It'd save millions of pounds in prison costs.

@AndStand

Even Albert Pierrepoint, the UK's last hangman stated that capital punishment wasn't a deterrent. He even had to hang someone who personally knew Albert, it hadn't deterred him from murdering. However in cases where it's so cut and dried, like Emma Tustin or Ian Huntley I'd have no objection purely on a monetary basis. It'd save millions of pounds in prison costs.

The problem though is it isn’t always cut and dried and it doesn’t make you much better, if you’re prepared to advocate for murder. It is murder, give it a different name of capital punishment but it remains murder.

Of course it should be brought back if you take a life then your life should also be taken

@HalfWomanHalfMincePie

No, never.

I understand the human urge for revenge when they see an appalling wrong/crime committed. I feel it myself and half imagine how satisfying it might be to really hurt someone back after seeing them hurt another.

But I want and need the law to be better than that.

Exactly.

It's not about whether a criminal deserves capital punishment - it's about what dealing out capital punishment turns us into.

I understand the fury and the emotion that makes you want to kill someone you think is evil. I'm 100% sure I could fire a bullet into Jair Bolsonaro myself and never feel a twinge of guilt.

I don't want that emotion to be enshrined in law. I want to be protected from it.

@Okbutnotgreat

I must admit I can see the attraction. Prisoners get a far better quality of life than my DM in a funded care home. There is far more staff, they have access to all sorts of enrichment and get medical treatment when needed. I’m pretty sure the food couldn’t be any worse either. When Covid19 was at its worst were they prevented from seeing their loved ones totally for months on end or was it their human right to have contact.

Personally I don’t think prison in this country is much of a deterrent to those who are that way inclined and I’m not sure why they deserve to live when their victims didn’t. Let’s save a few billion and make old age better for the ones who didn’t do anything wrong maybe. There’s not an infinite pot of money and I think maybe it should be spent on those who’ve lived a more law abiding life.

Except it costs more to keep prisoners on death row than to keep them in prison for decades.

@SlamLikeAGuitar

No. The way I look at it, capital punishment has no place in a civilised society. If, god forbid, I found myself in the position where a member of my family had been murdered, I’d want to know that the perpetrator was spending the rest of their life in prison, spending every day fearing for their safety. Prisons aren’t safe places. And when it comes to high profile cases - Emma Tustin for example - that particular brand of scum have a lot to be fearful about. Capital punishment removes all the suffering those people deserve to feel in the blink of an eye. I’d rather see their punishment dragged out.

This is true. And there’s also the fact that a lot of these killers attempt suicide once in prison. (Emma Tustin has already attempted this.) Capital punishment would arguably be giving them what they want.

I’m against capital punishment for other reasons, but it is something for those arguing in favour of it to consider.

My view is that life should mean life for those who commit such heinous crimes.

Literally all research indicates that capital punishment acts as no deterrent to capital crimes.

All it does is pile death and criminality onto death and criminality. Whole life tariffs for sure, but prison is as much about rehabilitation as punishment. Now, some criminals will never be rehabilitated into society but they will be rehabilitated in terms of finding a wider purpose, education, receiving therapy. A civilised society has a moral obligation to provide that for its convicted criminals.

good grief, absolutely fucking not and if this becomes a serious debate in this country we are finished. Fucking hell.

I do not want to see CP return. It is clear that it is no deterrent, and it has no place in a civilized society. Miscarriages of justice still happen and you can release a wrongly imprisoned person, but you cannot bring someone back to life once executed. I would like to see the worst criminals permanently out of circulation, that means properly long or full life sentences, and conversely we should stop imprisoning people for failure to pay fines and other minor, non-violent crimes.

@Overtime2019

Of course it should be brought back if you take a life then your life should also be taken

What’s your solution for ensuring no innocent person is ever put to death then?

The problem though is it isn’t always cut and dried and it doesn’t make you much better, if you’re prepared to advocate for murder. It is murder, give it a different name of capital punishment but it remains murder.

I don't agree with capital punishment for many reasons, but this argument is not going to win anybody round if they do. The kinds of criminals that people generally tend to want CP restored for are people who rape and murder children. People who torture and murder children. Serial killers. To accuse people like those on this thread who support the idea of CP of being "not much better" than these depraved and evil people is really quite offensive. The crime of raping and murdering a small child is infinitely, immeasurably worse than advocating for the execution of someone who has committed that crime.

I voted YANBU but having thought about it more i think it would be giving these heinous people what they want, as a lot of them would prefer a fairly instant, painless sort of death over spending time in prison. I do think sentences should be longer though and child murderers should have to do life.

@Aussiegirl123456

I think if there’s absolutely zero doubt that the perp committed a heinous crime then yes.

I mean zero doubt though, so not just relying on DNA evidence alone if there’s a million to one chance it could have been planted, a set up or a coincidence.

I know a million people will disagree though.

Where I live, years ago a young teenage boy was lured into a car, sexually assaulted and killed. His killer is frequently tortured in prison despite being in protective custody. That makes me guiltily happy he’s still alive to suffer. I don’t even care if that makes me sound heartless.

When juries convict, they do so on the basis that they believe the case against the accused has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt, but there have still been numerous wrongful convictions.

Just think of the number of innocent people who would have wrongly executed had we had capital punishment: Guildford Four, Birmingham 6, Maguire 7, Tottenham 3, Bridgewater 3, Stefan Kiszco, Judith Ward, M25 3 - and that's just off the top of my head.

Someone's DNA can be at the scene of a crime because they were there for innocent reasons totally unconnected with the murder.

And I suspect some jurors might be reluctant to convict if they thought execution was a likely outcome.

I dont believe in hitting children to stop them from hitting others, I dont believe in biting children to stop the from biting others, I dont believe in murdering people to stop them murdering others

I go back and forth on this issue regularly. For me there are behaviours that are unacceptable in society - theft, aggression, fraud etc. For which jail is appropriate along with reparations such as paying the money back and behavioural support such as anger management. But then there are a few occasions where that person is not acceptable in society - where there is little to no hope of helping them understand the impact of their behaviour and they will refuse to change. In this case I don’t see how prison or any amount of support is going to change their behaviour and yes I think the best thing for society is capital punishment.
But then the arguments against are definitely something to think on. That rape turns into murder, that society itself becomes morally corrupt, that sometimes the system (particularly an underfunded system) gets it wrong.
I don’t necessarily believe it is or is not a deterrent and if you’ve got to the point where it needs deterring like that then the poison is already there and society is so big that it is too far removed to encourage change. It’s such a tricky topic. It’s good to talk about it though, even though every time it is talked about I get less certain of the right thing.

If there is no restoration of capital pumishment, as I doubt it will ever get through parliament, then a life sentence should mean life , irrespective of your age or sex : you die in prision, behind bars and in solitary confiment, if necessary.

We need a justice system, not just a legal framework.