Would you want capital punishment back?

[Mynameisnew]

There are people who do such vile things in this country and are jailed for a decade or two. Perhaps released for good behaviour a bit earlier.

Afaik CP was stopped amongst other reasons because there were a number of errors made and innocent people being convicted.

But these days with DNA proof or cases where it is on cctv /phone messages or has been admitted (thinking of Emma Tustin)

Would it not make a good deterrent? Even if one person is saved from being murdered...

I appreciate that in the USA people still commit murder, but they also have guns there which means a higher incidence of spur of the moment violence.

But a sustained campaign of abuse - would such an abuser as Tustin have been put off if CP was an option, even if very rarely used?

It's easy for me to say that I would be deterred, but I'm not a psychopathic and sadistic person so the issue is, it's hard to say if people like that would be put off such a crime. Perhaps it doesn't even enter their heads that it's wrong.

Our criminal justice system needs sorting out.

There should be a proper distinction between criminals who would benefit from proper rehab, A well thought out, well resourced strategy, and those who are locked away for the safety of society or because their crimes are so great that the punishment is absolute: a whole life tariff.

[quote sqirrelfriends]**@Warmduscher* ... It's not right though, we can't reduce ourselves for murderers to feel a sense of revenge. The same for the death penalty, it might make people feel better but we're not a barbaric society.*

Posting half a quote is an asshole thing to do[/quote]
Leaving aside your unnecessary rudeness, you posted two separate paragraphs and I commented on one of them.

Was that not obvious to you when I only quoted one of the paragraphs you posted?

No, it must never be brought back. The state not being entitled to kill you must be absolute. Otherwise it's the thin end of the wedge to people being eliminated when their face doesn't fit. Start with paedophiles (it would be popular), then over time bring it in for murderers, then thieves, then onto benefits claimants, "political threats" aka immigrants and so on. I absolutely believe this could happen with the amount of open hate that is being thrown around at the moment. We must do all we can to prevent it.

I am completely against death penalty, even for the worst of crimes, in a civilised society for the reasons mentioned by many others. But this thread got me thinking as I am not opposed to armed police shooting a criminal, for example, a terrorist shot in the act. Maybe because it's less of a pre-meditated execution and undertaken only for safety of the police or public in the immediate moment and not in lieu of a lifetime in jail. Or maybe I am not as "civilised" as I thought. Of course, sometimes this goes wrong too and someone innocent is killed. It's all very complex the more I think about it.

@Warmduscher well you commented on half of a thought, you quoting half of what I said kind of gave the impression that that was the only thing I said, which was wrong.

I don't want capital punishment, that was my point. I couldn't make that point without pointing out that sometimes there are crimes that make us so angry that we might wish the worst on the perpetrators (capital punishment), I also made the point that that it is wrong to kill people despite its legality or how it's done.

All ok now?

AFAIK child abusers/murders are treated terribly in prisons as a huge proportion of prisoners have kids/nieces/nephews/kid siblings etc. And rightly so.

@Mynameisnew

I don't think that prison is a deterrent for people like Arthur's killers.

But people on this thread have shown how its highly unlikely capital punishment would have been as well, so if your end goal is stopping people like Arthur's killers then capital punishment wouldnt.

The death penalty, as discussed is expensive. Instead lets focus that money where it helps.

More social workers, more early years support, more free childcare, all of which put more trained adults with more time to look out for markers of abuse and children in vulnerable situations.

I'm not sure, I've always been dead agaisnt it, but as I get older and my hope for some time people reforming fades and how short we are off money for sw etc I feel maybe... There should be exceptional circumstances like tustin.

Where a committee can say.. Is it possible really worth housing and feeding this person for thirty years, plus costs of watching them when they are out.. The appeals they will want. Is it worth it?
Why is rose west still with us? Why are we spending money on the likes of Brady and hiNdly?

@OrinocoGlow

But this thread got me thinking as I am not opposed to armed police shooting a criminal, for example, a terrorist shot in the act.

I feel like that's closer to death through self defence, than murder?

[quote sqirrelfriends]@Warmduscher well you commented on half of a thought, you quoting half of what I said kind of gave the impression that that was the only thing I said, which was wrong.

I don't want capital punishment, that was my point. I couldn't make that point without pointing out that sometimes there are crimes that make us so angry that we might wish the worst on the perpetrators (capital punishment), I also made the point that that it is wrong to kill people despite its legality or how it's done.

All ok now? [/quote]
That’s not really what you said. You said you would “like” prisoners to be tortured. It doesn’t matter that you said in the second paragraph that you don’t support the death penalty.

Maybe you regret posting that you’d like prisoners to be tortured, which is fine. Lots of people have said things on this thread that they’d probably back down from irl.

I’m shocked they last so long in prison without being killed.

I think it definitely depends on the circumstances but yes any child abuse I think the perpetrators should be killed, including sexual abuse and child rape. Why should they get to live a happy normal life when they’ve ruined the innocence of a child/baby? It’s proved nothing cures these sickos so get rid of them.

I think they should have to endure exactly what they put the kids through, till their pathetic bodies give in

@OrinocoGlow

I am completely against death penalty, even for the worst of crimes, in a civilised society for the reasons mentioned by many others. But this thread got me thinking as I am not opposed to armed police shooting a criminal, for example, a terrorist shot in the act. Maybe because it's less of a pre-meditated execution and undertaken only for safety of the police or public in the immediate moment and not in lieu of a lifetime in jail. Or maybe I am not as "civilised" as I thought. Of course, sometimes this goes wrong too and someone innocent is killed. It's all very complex the more I think about it.

Theres a big difference between killing to save lives and killing in revenge for lives already lost.

YES. But several years on death row first. Just in case... Although, a miscarriage of justice is way more unlikely these days than it was like 50+ years ago.

I think once it is gone it is gone, to the extent that I think discussions about it and calls for it to come back are pointless. I cannot imagine any civilised society reintroducing the death penalty. And rightly so, we need to be better than that. I would like to see better sentencing though, we are far too soft far too often.

@Aussiegirl123456
How do you know he is tortured? Is this kind of thing reported?

I am against in CP because somebody has to carry out the sentence and it's unfair on them.

I believe the statistical odds of child murderers ending their own lives is one in five, which isn't entirely surprising given that well balanced people don't do much murder at all, let alone of children.

@Warmduscher yeah part of me would like Arthur's killers to have the same treatment they gave to him. It doesn't mean I would condone it if I saw it happening, It doesn't mean I would encourage it and it doesn't mean I wouldn't stop it if I had the power to.

We can all have dark thoughts, that doesn't mean we are "bloodthirsty". Obviously not you, but then we can't all be angelic perfection.

[quote jaffacakesareepic]@OrinocoGlow

But this thread got me thinking as I am not opposed to armed police shooting a criminal, for example, a terrorist shot in the act.

I feel like that's closer to death through self defence, than murder?[/quote]
Yes @jaffacakesareepic and 5128gap I think that is what I was trying to say in my clumsy way. I agree with you both. It's not done as an act of revenge, it's to prevent further danger.

[quote sqirrelfriends]@Warmduscher yeah part of me would like Arthur's killers to have the same treatment they gave to him. It doesn't mean I would condone it if I saw it happening, It doesn't mean I would encourage it and it doesn't mean I wouldn't stop it if I had the power to.

We can all have dark thoughts, that doesn't mean we are "bloodthirsty". Obviously not you, but then we can't all be angelic perfection. [/quote]
Not everyone would want to see killers like Tustin and Hughes tortured, not because we’re “angelic perfection” but because wishing the worst kind of cruelty on people who have committed terrible crimes debases us all and does nothing to alleviate the pain of the victim’s family.

[quote PicsInRed]This is capital punishment.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/18/the-rush-job-conviction-of-14-year-old-george-stinney-exonerated-70-years-after-execution/[/quote]
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE BACK

Absolutely not. No. Never. You are meeting violence with violence.

To those saying life should be life, I can understand that viewpoint but those who get ‘life’ remain on licence when released and must abide by those conditions or will be swiftly returned to custody. They are not released to live life as they wish

@OrinocoGlow

I am completely against death penalty, even for the worst of crimes, in a civilised society for the reasons mentioned by many others. But this thread got me thinking as I am not opposed to armed police shooting a criminal, for example, a terrorist shot in the act. Maybe because it's less of a pre-meditated execution and undertaken only for safety of the police or public in the immediate moment and not in lieu of a lifetime in jail. Or maybe I am not as "civilised" as I thought. Of course, sometimes this goes wrong too and someone innocent is killed. It's all very complex the more I think about it.

I think I’m fine with what you describe and my logical brain thinks “oh well if people are in danger…” and then I remember Jean Charles de Menezes and feel sick. I was on the Northern Line at Oval that morning and remember the evacuation and fear, the fear first of all that there were more bombs after the horrors of July 7th, and then the horror realising that normal, workaday folk like me on the tube had witnessed an innocent man’s death because of police incompetence. Never mind the police who killed him because of their colleagues incompetence/false information etc. They’re murderers now and for literally no good reason. Once you start examining this stuff it fucks you up. I can’t stand the thought of that ever happening again, let alone premeditated executions of wrongly accused people.

@Warmduscher never said I wished it, I said part of me would like it to happen (I also qualified this by saying it would be wrong for it to actually happen), there's a difference. If I "wished" for it to happen then I would agree with it, which I said I didn't in my first post.

We're not going to agree, let's be big girls and leave it there.

Yanbu. I dont care if its not a deterrent, it is certainly retribution. Alternatively make sure the prison conditions are really shit, don't give them medical treatment etc.

Let them suffer like their victims did.

I haven't RTFT but did you know that one reason capital punishment was abolished in the UK was that juries were refusing to convict criminals they knew were guilty of serious crimes BECAUSE they knew it meant the death penalty for the accused?

What a dreadful thing to witness DeclareThePenniesOnYourEyes, I can't imagine the fear and horror. It's all so grim isn't it. There will always be mistakes, even with the best trained officers, and there's no coming back from it. Another reason why CP must never be re-introduced in this country - there would be a miscarriage of justice at some point, it's inevitable.