To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

I really would not be able to let it go that she referred to your husband as a penis. The whole thing is outrageous.

Outrageous. Its a kids playgroup. For kids. Your can't exclude people just cause they have a penis. Plus who refers to a man as a penis....Wtaf?

And where do these women that feel "uncomfortable nursing their baby in front of a man" feed their baby in public normally then? There are men everywhere

Anyway. Id kick up a stink. And keep sending your kid to playgroup

My friends dad is 62 and looks after her dd once a week, they go to a stay and play type thing. He would be absolutely mortified if they received this email and rightly so. It’s not a women’s only group. It’s despicable IMO

@PAFMO

Unless he's getting it out and waggling it in time to the music, then I think you're all well off away from the group tbf. But I'd definitely complain. Probably to the Mail tbh.

Sorry but that really made me laugh.

This is outrageous OP, I would be leaving a review somewhere very public.

@SirGawain

What would outrage me is talking about a penis rather than a man. Would they refer to a woman as a vagina? Secondly how would they know he had penis? he could have had radical surgery due to illness or accident. This is not political correctness it's offensive stupidity.

Would they refer to a woman as a vagina?

YES! They have, for years. That's the problem. Women are referred to as 'pregnant people', 'uterus havers', 'cervix havers', 'menstrators'. THAT is what this pushback is about. The email writer is clearly fighting back fire with fire. It's not right, but unless you were living in a cave on another planet for the last 4 - 6 years, you'd know that us women have been referred to by our genitals. Why is it that some people only take notice the moment a man gets the same treatment?

@BlowDryRat

I'm all for women's single-sex spaces but a baby music group for parents is by definition open to both men and women. And her wording is offensive. Maybe troll her a bit and tell her you're really upset about your baby boy being excluded and you're sure the other boy-mums feel the same.

Do thus Ask why your baby boy 's penis upsets the vaginas?

That's the damage this whole thing has done. Women are tired of being called 'pregnant people', 'vagina havers', 'uterus havers', 'cervix havers' and 'menstruators'. Hence the push back referring to men the same way.

It's not the same. "Person with a penis" or "penis haver" would have been the same. The group leader literally called him "a penis".

OP I don't think your DH is going to want to go back there regardless, so you may as well cause as much fuss as possible. Call them out in person, take it above their heads to the franchise people, contact the people they rent space from. Maybe it'll achieve nothing practical, but it'll show DH you're on his side.

Their actions are discriminatory and illegal. This is a space for babies who will be accompanied by a parent. Its not a space for women so people's genitalia, sex (and gender, if one believes in that), is irrelevant. Nobody is being forced to breastfeed in front of him, they can take themselves off elsewhere if they choose.

The group leader needs a lesson in what's best for your business is to be legal and reasonable, not to allow yourself to be ruled by idiots. Trash her reputation all over social media, local paper etc. If all she cares about is money, hit her where it hurts.

It's worth it because if she closes or the franchise appoints someone new, then you're back to a situation where DH has a parent and baby group to attend. If you leave it as is, he's been pushed out of the town. If nothing comes of it, at least you know you tried.

@Lividlavidacoco

I’ve just discovered there’s a baby swimming group not too far away - I think I’ll suggest DH takes DS to that. You’re right and he’s not going to want to go back to this group which is such a massive shame.

I understand wanting to go elsewhere but that aside I hope you don’t let them win without some kind of pushback. It’s appalling behaviour.

Everything on Mumsnet is so bizarre today. Is it a full moon?

Did they seriously refer to your DH as a penis? Do they realise that baby boys have genitals too?

If this is for real you could make it into the Mirror with this story. But on a serious note it’s sex discrimination and absolutely don’t stand for it. I don’t know how informal the mums coffee morning is but don’t see why he couldn’t still take your son to that if he is friends with other babies there already.

That’s outrageous. To call him a Penis is absolutely bizarre. A parent and baby music group should be for all parents. Is it part of a franchise you could complain to.
There were 2 dads at DD’s music group over 10 years ago.
I’d be tempted to reply it’s fine DH identifies as a woman but realistically he’s not going to feel comfortable there.

Breastfeeding group or any other female only space then I totally understand but a baby music group is not female only.
Tbh it's not your husbands problem if these women feel uncomfortable breastfeeding in front of him. I assume he isn't gawping at them. There's been lots of dads at baby groups I've been to and I've never once been made to feel uncomfortable breastfeeding.
What will these mums do if they're out at a cafe or something?
The music class must only be an hour long so surely they can just breastfeed before they go if it's that much of a problem.

That last post was @SirGawain .

This is awful. Your poor husband. I’d be going for a slightly naive approach of ‘surely I’ve read your email wrong?’ while clearly getting in the words sex discrimination - give them a chance to walk it back. Then go to HO if they don’t, something like…

Dear music teacher.

I have taken some time to consider the contents of your email sent on xx/xx.

In a time when we are striving for equality on all fronts, to exclude a father (or, as you so kindly referred to him, ‘a penis’) from a group simply on the basis of his sex feels surprising. It means, of course, that you are also excluding my child.

As your group is not advertised as single sex (or, as you might put it,‘vaginas only’) I wonder what basis you have for seeking this exclusion other than “discomfort” from other parents.

Perhaps you might like to reflect on whether you actually intended to discriminate against attendees based on their sex alone, or whether perhaps there has been a misunderstanding somewhere along the way?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yanbu
How do these women cope on a day to day basis if they can't bf around men? I'm sure your husband has no interest what so ever in watching them.

@EllieLucy

That's the damage this whole thing has done. Women are tired of being called 'pregnant people', 'vagina havers', 'uterus havers', 'cervix havers' and 'menstruators'. Hence the push back referring to men the same way.

It's not the same. "Person with a penis" or "penis haver" would have been the same. The group leader literally called him "a penis".

OP I don't think your DH is going to want to go back there regardless, so you may as well cause as much fuss as possible. Call them out in person, take it above their heads to the franchise people, contact the people they rent space from. Maybe it'll achieve nothing practical, but it'll show DH you're on his side.

Their actions are discriminatory and illegal. This is a space for babies who will be accompanied by a parent. Its not a space for women so people's genitalia, sex (and gender, if one believes in that), is irrelevant. Nobody is being forced to breastfeed in front of him, they can take themselves off elsewhere if they choose.

The group leader needs a lesson in what's best for your business is to be legal and reasonable, not to allow yourself to be ruled by idiots. Trash her reputation all over social media, local paper etc. If all she cares about is money, hit her where it hurts.

It's worth it because if she closes or the franchise appoints someone new, then you're back to a situation where DH has a parent and baby group to attend. If you leave it as is, he's been pushed out of the town. If nothing comes of it, at least you know you tried.

Exactly. It's not the same. She isn't saying the mums are uncomfortable with the "penis haver". It's just "penis". He is literally just a penis. Utterly, utterly bizarre and inappropriate.

@Charliesgotachocolatefactory

This is awful. Your poor husband. I’d be going for a slightly naive approach of ‘surely I’ve read your email wrong?’ while clearly getting in the words sex discrimination - give them a chance to walk it back. Then go to HO if they don’t, something like…

Dear music teacher.

I have taken some time to consider the contents of your email sent on xx/xx.

In a time when we are striving for equality on all fronts, to exclude a father (or, as you so kindly referred to him, ‘a penis’) from a group simply on the basis of his sex feels surprising. It means, of course, that you are also excluding my child.

As your group is not advertised as single sex (or, as you might put it,‘vaginas only’) I wonder what basis you have for seeking this exclusion other than “discomfort” from other parents.

Perhaps you might like to reflect on whether you actually intended to discriminate against attendees based on their sex alone, or whether perhaps there has been a misunderstanding somewhere along the way?

I look forward to hearing from you.

100% this. Please send this!

If it’s held in a community hall, church or council building complain to them. There will be rules groups have to follow. If they are advertising as parent and baby it shouldn’t discriminate.

@Charliesgotachocolatefactory

This is awful. Your poor husband. I’d be going for a slightly naive approach of ‘surely I’ve read your email wrong?’ while clearly getting in the words sex discrimination - give them a chance to walk it back. Then go to HO if they don’t, something like…

Dear music teacher.

I have taken some time to consider the contents of your email sent on xx/xx.

In a time when we are striving for equality on all fronts, to exclude a father (or, as you so kindly referred to him, ‘a penis’) from a group simply on the basis of his sex feels surprising. It means, of course, that you are also excluding my child.

As your group is not advertised as single sex (or, as you might put it,‘vaginas only’) I wonder what basis you have for seeking this exclusion other than “discomfort” from other parents.

Perhaps you might like to reflect on whether you actually intended to discriminate against attendees based on their sex alone, or whether perhaps there has been a misunderstanding somewhere along the way?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Brilliant reply

That made me laugh 'don't want a penis!' Coz it's so daft!

But then the reality of how bloody rude and sexist it is hit me! YANBU @Lividlavidacoco

People have a right to be a bit uncomfortable with men there, but they have no right to be so nasty.

It never bothered me breastfeeding in front of strange men actually, I was more embarrassed doing it in front of men I knew! (Dad, brother, male in-laws etc...) And I would go off in another room to do it. It wasn't them, and it wasn't their fault; it was all on me.

OP I know you've said he won't go back to the group, but honestly I would encourage him. He has every right to be there and he should brazen it out. He's going for your son, not to make friends. The leader should have told the 'mummies' she understood their feelings but that the group is for all parents and she can't discriminate against men. New people will join and this won't be an issue.

Ask about the policy regarding inspecting each persons gentiles while attending the group? Presumably no one checked yours and no one has checked his? Who's to say he even has a penis.

Write back and tell them that they just be mistaken as his penis fell off a few years ago and see if they ask for proof.

Unbelievable

You really should name and shame in fact (despite reading your earlier posts), I still don't know why you won't.

Unless it's advertised as a breastfeeding mothers only music group, she's on extremely thin ice sending an email like that.

However, she will only have sent that as she's had comments made from the other mothers..... just something to bear in mind. I think I'd have more of an issue with them than the foot-in-mouth group arranger. So I would say something at your next group...... and let it be known that you're really pissed off at how narrow minded some people are, and that he's a Dad focused on his son..... not some pervy tit voyeur.

Gosh i thought you had inserted (pardon the pun!) the word penis!! I am totally shocked that she could say both that he can’t come along and secondly that she used that word. What is ring with people?! To be honest, maybe the group isn’t for you if they are that insular and odd, find a group with more regular parents!

That is so bad it is actually disgusting what and actual idiot to have sent it- give her hell and complain officially where you can