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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

880 replies

Lividlavidacoco · 01/12/2021 20:12

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do Sad

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

OP posts:
TheCraicDealer · 01/12/2021 20:58

I'm also a staunch supporter of single sex spaces but agree a baby music class ain't one of those. Clearly your DH feels the same way, which is why he's self-excluded from the BF based groups.

I was going to ask if it's a franchise and if it was the case, email her back and I say "I'm concerned that you are not only excluding my DH and DS from an activity they both enjoy, but that you are also opening yourself up to allegations of discrimination against gay couples or single parents of the male sex. I would like to give you the opportunity to reconsider your position before I formally approach [Franchise] HQ".

It may well be that your DH will be too uncomfortable to reattend, but by god I'd make sure that woman's toes curl for making him feel that way. My DH was a SAHD through Covid and I know he and DD would have really benefited from doing groups like these, but we didn't have the option due to closures.

Fros · 01/12/2021 20:58

The Equality Act 2010 protects everyone from discrimination from :

(among others) businesses and organisations which provide goods or services like banks, shops and utility companies

And sex is one of the 9 protected characteristics.

Not only is that email awful, it's unlawful. I'd be considering seeing if a solicitors letter would help them to see sense.

(just like I'm not comfortable changing in a group setting after swimming so choose to change in private in a cubicle, they could provide a screened area so any mother who is uncomfortable breastfeeding in front of others can choose to do so in private)

TractorAndHeadphones · 01/12/2021 20:58

Wait - so did the mums actually breastfeed in front of him? Is that the issue - that they expected to be able to , and couldn't because there was a man there?

MadeForThis · 01/12/2021 20:58

I would be beyond angry.

Forward the email to the head office.

Depending on the reply I would plaster it over their social media.

Sockpile · 01/12/2021 20:58

Referring to your husband as a penis is unacceptable, no one should be referred to by their genitals.

DD1 is 20, it was never an issue when dads brought their babies to tumble tots- it’s hard to believe we have regressed in that time rather than accepting that men can be hands on parents too.

Tee20x · 01/12/2021 20:58

Awful. I go to baby rhyme time and dads are more than welcomed. How awful, I'm so shocked.

Surely the mums who want to breastfeed would get on with it or if they really feel uncomfortable feed after the session. What is it - probably like 30-40 mins!

MLMshouldbeillegal · 01/12/2021 20:59

The worst of it for the OP's husband though is that if she shows him the email, the group is ruined for him anyway.

Because he knows the vagina who is leading the group, and the "breastfeeding mummies" don't want him there. They are bullying him out.

Effram · 01/12/2021 20:59

Completely discriminatory. She is also cutting off potential future clients dads or grandparents etc (or may or may not add a penis to the room)

EightWheelGirl · 01/12/2021 20:59

Actually This happens regularly on social media groups and no doubt will infiltrate face to face groups. Women who object to being called "people with vaginas", and "cervix owners" are sent packing.

Not quite the same though. ‘People with vaginas’ is used to differentiate between natal women and women who are actually men but must be referred to as women.

Original poster
Lividlavidacoco · 01/12/2021 21:00

Thanks all. I’m going to give the group leader the opportunity to correct her position on this and ask that she apologises to DH before I do anything else. As tempting as it is to name and shame and burn the crops and salt the earth.. this is a small town and I don’t really fancy the hassle when she’s a really well thought of member of the community (ex health visitor). She’s actually probably on mumsnet herself so no doubt she’ll see this and hopefully all your outrage will help her see the light. I’ve NC’d so I’m fine with that.

I’m going to have to tell DH tonight - I’ll need to find a way to be gentle about it and I’m not sure how to do that yet. He’s going to feel like he’s done something wrong Sad

OP posts:
mugglenutmeg · 01/12/2021 21:00

This is absolutely ridiculous!

'A penis in the room' for goodness sake she made it sound like he whipped it out for all to see.

Women are constantly reminding everyone that breastfeeding is not sexual, and the most natural thing in the world to feed your baby, and fighting for the right to feed everywhere. These twats are in fact sexualising it.

I'm fuming on your DH's behalf but also on your DS's behalf as he us now missing out.

ClaudiaJ1 · 01/12/2021 21:00

OP I wouldn't address the group app just yet. I would however reply to the group leader stating it is a group for babies, not for women, and no where does it say it is for women. That fathers have paternity leave and there are stay at home dads. I would ignore her calling him a 'penis', and just overlook that in the understanding of the current temperate climate. The issue is that it is not a group for women. It is a group for babies, and parents of both sexes take them there.

ManicPixie · 01/12/2021 21:00

Calmly reply that you’ll be reporting them to the relevant standards authority. That kind of sexual discrimination by a business can’t be legal.

EightWheelGirl · 01/12/2021 21:01

Although I do feel the organiser is probably somewhat stuck in the middle. But she could’ve been more tactful. Guarantee she’s a feminist!

BeardyButton · 01/12/2021 21:01

“A penis”???? I’m rarely speechless.....

perfectstorm · 01/12/2021 21:01

I would tend to agree that this is a backlash brought about by the appalling behaviour of the likes of Stonewall, but we don't protect women's right to single sex spaces where they're necessary by discriminating against fathers where they aren't. No wonder your poor partner is upset - he's every right to be. It's not a breastfeeding group. It's a music group.

The Equality Act says provision of services can only be single sex where that is proportionate and legitimate, and I really don't see how this is. I'd email back and point out that she is in breach of the Act, as she is discriminating on the grounds of sex without legitimate reason to justify it. He can't be excluded on the basis of a protected characteristic without justifiable cause - and sex is a protected characteristic.

Sofiegiraffe · 01/12/2021 21:01

I would ignore her calling him a 'penis', and just overlook that in the understanding of the current temperate climate.

Couldn't disagree more. This is the worst part of the email!

MushMonster · 01/12/2021 21:02

Complain OP.
I feel for him and how he is going to feel about this.
The world has gone crazy. Some people seem to have become unable to refer and treat others as persons. It is very sad.

BettyBooper · 01/12/2021 21:03

@DeepaBeesKit

This is unbelievable
Agreed.
Lucienandjean · 01/12/2021 21:04

I run a volunteer-led baby and career group, and we would not stand for this sort of discrimination. We have 2 dad's regularly, and others occasionally, and have never had a problem.

I'm a huge supporter of single-sex spaces for women, for places where women are vulnerable, undressed, or discussing personal matters. But a baby group is not any of those (unless it's specifically a breastfeeding group, or one for women with childbirth injuries, or post natal issues perhaps).

And calling your dh a penis is ridiculous, and insulting. Perhaps you should write back complaining about 'the vaginas' who are excluding him!

I hope you find a better group than this one, to be honest. I'm not sure I'd want to be part of group that excluded a SAHD like this.

ClaudiaJ1 · 01/12/2021 21:04

@EightWheelGirl

Actually This happens regularly on social media groups and no doubt will infiltrate face to face groups. Women who object to being called "people with vaginas", and "cervix owners" are sent packing.

Not quite the same though. ‘People with vaginas’ is used to differentiate between natal women and women who are actually men but must be referred to as women.

It still has the same affect of referring to women by their genitals. It is exactly the same thing and it is that, that started this all off.

There is a way to differentiate biological women and those who are male but identify as women. It's called;
Women
Trans Women.

There is no need for 'people with vaginas'.

Ihaveamagicwand · 01/12/2021 21:04

^28YellowandGreenToBeSeen
I too would go APESHIT about this.
I’d start to get legal on their arse. Who owns the space in which they are holding the music class? What is your town / county councils policy on local groups and inclusion? Have any Midwives or Health Visitors recommend the group?
I’d be absolutely sending an email advising them I was seeking advice on their stance (but no more detail other than that till I’d looked into the points above).
Utter fury!^

THIS!!

As someone who has set up and run many groups over the years this response is definitely the best one especially as the group is not specifically marketed for women. Let the fog of fury clear OP and investigate.

OP is there a library rhymetime locally, they are very inclusive and usually very good.

ArrrMeHearties · 01/12/2021 21:05

That's very discriminatory towards your Dh. No wonder your livid

ClemDanFango · 01/12/2021 21:06

This is so awful. Your poor DH and poor DS being excluded because some of the women can’t be bloody adults!

BlowDryRat · 01/12/2021 21:06

I'm all for women's single-sex spaces but a baby music group for parents is by definition open to both men and women. And her wording is offensive. Maybe troll her a bit and tell her you're really upset about your baby boy being excluded and you're sure the other boy-mums feel the same.