To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

@EightWheelGirl

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

I’ve not heard of many instances of people wanting to exclude women based on their genitalia. It’s always men.

💯

@Roisin78 as much as you want to, you can't say that on mumsnet. Just. Asking you aware

@EightWheelGirl

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

I’ve not heard of many instances of people wanting to exclude women based on their genitalia. It’s always men.

Interesting. Since trans has been brought up by others. Trans men are not accepted in the Masons or the Garrick Club and don't have the right to inherit property in the same way that natal men are. Trans women are entitled to enter all of those exclusively male spaces even though they have rejected being men.

Also consider why women might not be excluded on the basis of genitalia in the same way as men are. Men commit sexual assault and rape at a much higher rate than women. Do you think that might be a factor in exclusion on the basis of genitalia?

@CheddarGorgeous

He’s got 4 dad friends who are also stay at home parents during the week so he’s meeting them for a coffee today and he says he’ll ask if they faced similar issues. We informally call it Dad Group but maybe that should actually be a thing??

They should all go to the music group together

My thoughts exactly!

Also consider why women might not be excluded on the basis of genitalia in the same way as men are. Men commit sexual assault and rape at a much higher rate than women. Do you think that might be a factor in exclusion on the basis of genitalia?

No doubt it's a factor but it's still wrong to suggest that men are regularly protesting about a vagina in their spaces. It's just not true, irrespective of the reasons.

Why didn’t your husband email himself?

@Pumperthepumper

Why didn’t your husband email himself?

Why didn't the woman email OP's husband?

I thought the email response back was brilliant. I hope he finds an awesome dad group.

We can't complain about men not sharing childcare and then exclude dad's. Or call the police when a dad is alone with their child. Or call security security dad is picking up clothing to their child on their own.

@AdobeWanKenobi I don’t know - I was assuming she had the OP’s email address.

Regardless, emailing on behalf of your husband when he’s perfectly capable of doing it himself sort of underlines the point being made.

*undermines

OP your email reply was absolutely brilliant. Do keep us updated as to what they come back with.

@EightWheelGirl

Also consider why women might not be excluded on the basis of genitalia in the same way as men are. Men commit sexual assault and rape at a much higher rate than women. Do you think that might be a factor in exclusion on the basis of genitalia?

No doubt it's a factor but it's still wrong to suggest that men are regularly protesting about a vagina in their spaces. It's just not true, irrespective of the reasons.

I think we have a misunderstanding.

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

Is the phrase that has been misunderstood. I am talking about the erosion of language not the objection to women being in spaces for men.

When I said it 'happens more regularly to women' I meant reducing us to our body parts. It is rare that this happens to men yet women are cervix havers, bodies with vaginas etc regularly in NHS and charity settings. You don't see men referred to as prostate havers for example.

This is utterly ridiculous.
I breastfed and I never gave a shit about who saw, especially in baby groups.
However, if I was ever in a situation where I felt uncomfortable, I'd cover up.
It actually saddens me that this is even an issue.
I think your DH shouldn't go out of principle, cannot believe the nerve of her to refer to him as penis.
You should call her a c**t and see how she likes that!!

@Lividlavidacoco What a masterful and measured response. I would have probably lost my shit. You also have a rare gem - an actually brave man! What a keeper! Millions of years ago I was a music teacher. I am deeply shocked at this woman’s stance and I do hope she sees sense and you get an apology. I don’t like exclusion - it’s bullying and it serves no purpose. Especially in this case.

Breastfeeding mummies : "I'm the most offensive phrase in this emai! "

Penis in the room "Hold my pint"

Wondering if anyone HAS genuinely complained or if the ridiculous language used is the music teacher’s own prejudice showing? I bet none of these breastfeeding women think twice about whipping a boob out in Costa and whacking a muslin over the top (or not)… The strong language is a thing for me. Gives me the icks and makes me think DH should be inviting every SAH Dad in the country.

@lifeturnsonadime

offmyfence so if it happens to a man it's awful?

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

And we must not mention, ever, mention that the reason that people are being described by their body parts is a result of the trans activism agenda ?

It's terrible that the OP's husband has been treated this way but we can't talk about the context it is happening in because it's derailing????

Yes it's derailing. Oh how I wish for an "ignore poster" button so I didn't have to read this shit. The argument you're having is valid, just not in this thread. All of you, including the one who originally said it's something about trans should fuck off elsewhere. It's not your valid points about women's rights that's toxic, it's the constant arguing about it. I have strong political views, doesn't mean I want to discuss them in every conversation with everyone ever. Same with this.

He wasn't called a "penis person" which at least acknowledges that he's a person, he was called "a penis" as if he wasn't a person at all, literally just an insult. Whether it was a typo or not is largely irrelevant, a professional person providing a service insulted him. But that's the SIDE ISSUE, the main one being that he is facing sex discrimination by being excluded from the group for no reason other than his sex. Yes it happens to women far more than men, but this thread happened to be about OP's DH, a man, so it's not the place to start banging on about women's rights.

I'm all for women's rights! But what's wrong with supporting the OP (or disagreeing with her if that's how you feel)? There's no need to drag your pet project into it. Discussion of women's rights re TRA's is of no help to this OP. Therefore its derailing. Which is annoying.

@User5252727 because lots of us on mumsnet avoid that board like the plague because it's so toxic, and don't want it seeping in and detailing other threads like has happened to this OP.

So you admit you have no interested in women's rights and consider feminism 'toxic' and would rather stick your head in the sand regarding what's going on? Easier to do than face reality, right? That board is the least toxic of all of this site.

And considering the very real impact of the erosion of women's rights and spaces has on us all, and affects every day life, it has already 'seeped' into other threads by sheer necessity.

If arguing for women's basic human rights is 'toxic' to you, why don't you go to another site where you can remain blissfully in denial? I for one, will make people aware at every opportunity, regardless of the section of the site. You should care enough to take an interest. It's no longer an option for women (or for men) to opt out of the discussion.

@EllieLucy There is a link you're missing in this. If the OP is true then it's clear the woman who emailed and who used the term penis (perhaps leaving off the 'haver' word accidentally) did it as a feminist reaction and a pushback to women being pushed out of spaces. The email reads, no actually shouts, pro feminist/anti trans. It is therefore very relevant to point out where the trend of referring to genitals originated (Meninists/TRAs) and what has (clearly) led to the emailer using such terms. There is a very clear link between the erosion of women's spaces/calling women vaginas, and the terminology used inn the email and I think you are being disingenuous to say 'nothing to see here' regarding that.

They are clearly linked. Thus it is fair and reasonable to point out the obvious to those who have been sleepwalking like user through this because they choose not to pay attention to what is happening around them.

@ClaudiaJ1 just go away. What part of "I'm not interested" is so hard for you to understand? I'm not missing the link I'm just not interested with regards to his thread, because it's irrelevant. This woman group leader has beliefs. Fine whatever. We all have beliefs. The OP's DH isn't trans so her beliefs about it are irrelevant. She should be able to tell the difference between sex discrimination and the trans right movement. She should be able to tell the difference between a man calling himself a woman due to body dysmorphia/wanting to get one over on women/being some kind of horrible person/any other reasons...and OP's DH who just wants to come to a "parents and baby music group" because a) he's a parent and b) he's bringing a baby with him who enjoys the group. He's not trying to erode women's rights, he's not trying to pretend to be something he's not and it's bloody obvious. This has fuck all to do with trans and everything to do with the group leader being unprofessional and acting illegally. The language she used to be unprofessional with is the very least of it. You lot making it about that are derailing the thread. The people saying they don't agree with the language she used are voicing their opinion to provide support to OP and her DH. The people banging on about trans and "what about the language women put up with" aren't helping OP in any way. THIS THREAD ISNT ABOUT WOMEN AND WHAT LANGUAGE GETS USED AGAINST THEM. You're not just mentioning stuff you're getting in a trans debate argument with various posters whose opinion you disagree with on that subject. It's derailing. I want to follow the thread to find out the outcome for OP. I don't want to read all this trans shit. Hope that's made it clearer for you.

why don't you go to another site where you can remain blissfully in denial? I for one, will make people aware at every opportunity, regardless of the section of the site. You should care enough to take an interest. It's no longer an option for women (or for men) to opt out of the discussion.

@MNHQ any chance of a "ignore user" button so evangelist like this one can be ignored please? Sorry OP for putting this here on your thread, I'm not sure what else I could have done with it.

Well this happened

Well done folks!!

WTF has male, female or trans to do with all of it. It is a baby music class. The baby is the participant and whoever takes the baby there is irrelevant (he/she is just a caretaker). Well done OP for not letting it go!

[quote ShineySparkleyChrissmassy]@ClaudiaJ1 just go away. What part of "I'm not interested" is so hard for you to understand? I'm not missing the link I'm just not interested with regards to his thread, because it's irrelevant. This woman group leader has beliefs. Fine whatever. We all have beliefs. The OP's DH isn't trans so her beliefs about it are irrelevant. She should be able to tell the difference between sex discrimination and the trans right movement. She should be able to tell the difference between a man calling himself a woman due to body dysmorphia/wanting to get one over on women/being some kind of horrible person/any other reasons...and OP's DH who just wants to come to a "parents and baby music group" because a) he's a parent and b) he's bringing a baby with him who enjoys the group. He's not trying to erode women's rights, he's not trying to pretend to be something he's not and it's bloody obvious. This has fuck all to do with trans and everything to do with the group leader being unprofessional and acting illegally. The language she used to be unprofessional with is the very least of it. You lot making it about that are derailing the thread. The people saying they don't agree with the language she used are voicing their opinion to provide support to OP and her DH. The people banging on about trans and "what about the language women put up with" aren't helping OP in any way. THIS THREAD ISNT ABOUT WOMEN AND WHAT LANGUAGE GETS USED AGAINST THEM. You're not just mentioning stuff you're getting in a trans debate argument with various posters whose opinion you disagree with on that subject. It's derailing. I want to follow the thread to find out the outcome for OP. I don't want to read all this trans shit. Hope that's made it clearer for you.[/quote]
Er, I don't believe I ever aimed a post at you or referenced you @ShineySparkleyChrissmassy so what is with your over the top post? Maybe you should stop derailing yourself.

@ShineySparkleyChrissmassy

why don't you go to another site where you can remain blissfully in denial? I for one, will make people aware at every opportunity, regardless of the section of the site. You should care enough to take an interest. It's no longer an option for women (or for men) to opt out of the discussion.

@MNHQ any chance of a "ignore user" button so evangelist like this one can be ignored please? Sorry OP for putting this here on your thread, I'm not sure what else I could have done with it.

Perhaps @MNHQ could give us an ignore user button so those like yourself who are trying to silence and bully others can be ignored..... @ShineySparkleyChrissmassy

PS. You don't need to read the full thread to get the OP's updates. There is a function called See all underneath their posts. You can click on that and it only shows the OP's posts, and their posts only. But of course that is too easy and then you wouldn't be able to showboat and bully and whinge.