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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

880 replies

Lividlavidacoco · 01/12/2021 20:12

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do Sad

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

OP posts:
EllieLucy · 02/12/2021 20:28

@Roisin78

No, but you did seem to suggest that women should be allowed to unilaterally declare a space as women only and exclude others who attend regularly on that basis.

Business owners are allowed to do just that under the equality act, there are single sex exemptions for just this reason. I understand your DH is upset but at the end of the day if a group of women want a female only group then they're allowed to do that. Why does your husband still want to go and why are you both pushing for this despite knowing his presence is making women feel uncomfortable 🙄
The owner tried to have a parents group and it didn't work so she changed the policy, many women don't want mixed sex groups. There's nothing to stop dads setting up their own.

No, business owners are not allowed to do that without good reason. Sex discrimination is illegal. That's fact. So no, they can't simply decide that a baby music group is women only, because to do so would be to break the law. The law trumps everything, including the rules a business owner might like to set.
User5252727 · 02/12/2021 20:28

@lifeturnsonadime

Please all piss off back to the feminism board so that those of us who avoid the toxic cesspit of that debate can use this site without being dragged into into it.

You see the problem with this is that reducing people to body parts, as happened to the OPs husband, is what Feminists are fighting against not for.

Look at the outrage on this thread about this man being referred to by his body parts.

But when women are outraged by the persistent attempts to remove the word woman from common language and the fact that we have and continue to be reduced to body parts by public bodies who have adopted Stonewall policies. e.g. bodies with vaginas in a recent issue of the notable medical journal The Lancet we must be pushed into a corner.

How very misogynistic of you.

Where has literally anybody on this thread said it's ok to refer to women as body parts? That might be an argument you're enjoying elsewhere but there was absolutely no need to bring it onto this thread when not one person is suggesting it's ok.
Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 20:32

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea

Yeah she wasn't pleasant at the best of times but that comment made us just stop going.
Which is a bloody shame, that some bay shit crazy woman has done that!
Keepingtheseatwarm · 02/12/2021 20:38

@User5252727 the first paragraph of the post you quoted is in fact taken from another post. I think @lifeturnsonadime meant to highlight it, and forgot.

Arrowheart · 02/12/2021 20:41

@Aphantasia

Urgh, she referred to your husband as a penis?? I’d right back and tell her she and all the other vaginas can go fuck themselves
This is brilliant!!!
User5252727 · 02/12/2021 20:45

[quote Keepingtheseatwarm]**@User5252727* the first paragraph of the post you quoted is in fact taken from another post. I think @lifeturnsonadime* meant to highlight it, and forgot.[/quote]
Yes - my post. And my point is that turning a thread into a bunfight about trans rights instead of keeping that to the prescribed board is a crap thing to do, because lots of us on mumsnet avoid that board like the plague because it's so toxic, and don't want it seeping in and detailing other threads like has happened to this OP.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 20:47

[quote Keepingtheseatwarm]**@User5252727* the first paragraph of the post you quoted is in fact taken from another post. I think @lifeturnsonadime* meant to highlight it, and forgot.[/quote]
thank you, that's exactly what happened.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 20:48

What's toxic about women not wanting to be referred to as 'bodies with Vaginas', cervix havers, or bleeders?

What's toxic about women wanting to retain, where appropriate, single sex spaces?

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 20:49

to be clear this has nothing to do with Trans rights, you are making it about that.

Women have the right to speak up for women's rights on a parenting forum.

If you don't like that then perhaps you should take a look at yourself and why you are posting on one.

Keepingtheseatwarm · 02/12/2021 20:51

The trans thing is very relevant to all our lives. It really shouldn't be confined to a naughty corner. The situation that OP describes is highly likely to be down the the way the trans agenda has made people change their language.
And sexism is playing a big part too.
It's a conversation that needs to be had, and out in the open.

ManicPixie · 02/12/2021 20:51

@Roisin78

No, but you did seem to suggest that women should be allowed to unilaterally declare a space as women only and exclude others who attend regularly on that basis.

Business owners are allowed to do just that under the equality act, there are single sex exemptions for just this reason. I understand your DH is upset but at the end of the day if a group of women want a female only group then they're allowed to do that. Why does your husband still want to go and why are you both pushing for this despite knowing his presence is making women feel uncomfortable 🙄
The owner tried to have a parents group and it didn't work so she changed the policy, many women don't want mixed sex groups. There's nothing to stop dads setting up their own.

Your second paragraph is just a stream of unmitigated BS. No, business owners are not allowed to unilaterally decide after the fact to discriminate on the basis of sex.
Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 20:53

@lifeturnsonadime

What's toxic about women not wanting to be referred to as 'bodies with Vaginas', cervix havers, or bleeders?

What's toxic about women wanting to retain, where appropriate, single sex spaces?

These were not trying to keep an appropriate single sex space though!
lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 20:59

These were not trying to keep an appropriate single sex space though!

I know, and if you look at my earlier posts you will see that i have said that!

The reason I have spoken like this is because of the poster who said that women saying that this is a result of language being changed by TRAs should be confined to the naughty corner.

TheOccupier · 02/12/2021 21:02

@Lividlavidacoco

I’m still furious but DH’s response (and it speaks volumes about him) was to laugh and say he expects it was a knee jerk reaction and he’s not hurt, just a bit disappointed because DS will miss out.

He’s got 4 dad friends who are also stay at home parents during the week so he’s meeting them for a coffee today and he says he’ll ask if they faced similar issues. We informally call it Dad Group but maybe that should actually be a thing??

"Dad Group" should absolutely be a thing! Whatever happens with the baby music weirdos DH should definitely set up Dad Group!

Great email, by the way. :)

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 21:07

Where has literally anybody on this thread said it's ok to refer to women as body parts? That might be an argument you're enjoying elsewhere but there was absolutely no need to bring it onto this thread when not one person is suggesting it's ok.

Shall I spell it out for you?

Earlier on this thread women have commented that the fact that the OPs husband was referred to as a Penis person is a direct result of the fact that language has been eroded to be 'inclusive'.

As threads are moving beasts many people have commented some pro the erosion of language and some anti the erosion of language. This has led to some women commenting that it is evident that everyone on this thread thinks referring to a man as a 'penis person' is unacceptable and that it is a shame that the same courtesy isn't extended to women being described (more often that men x 1000000) by their body parts.

To which you have asked us all (feminists) to be put in a corner because for some reason you don't think that we should mention it.

You are the one detracting from the thread. Not me.

NeverChange · 02/12/2021 21:26

What the hell is this woman smoking?

Have we gotten to the stage that we can't refer to people as man and women anymore?

"A penis in the room"......you'd swear he was carrying it around in his hand shaking it at people!!

The email is all sorts of wrong in the first place but she has to be a special kind of stupid to think her wording would be appreciated.

Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 21:35

@lifeturnsonadime

Where has literally anybody on this thread said it's ok to refer to women as body parts? That might be an argument you're enjoying elsewhere but there was absolutely no need to bring it onto this thread when not one person is suggesting it's ok.

Shall I spell it out for you?

Earlier on this thread women have commented that the fact that the OPs husband was referred to as a Penis person is a direct result of the fact that language has been eroded to be 'inclusive'.

As threads are moving beasts many people have commented some pro the erosion of language and some anti the erosion of language. This has led to some women commenting that it is evident that everyone on this thread thinks referring to a man as a 'penis person' is unacceptable and that it is a shame that the same courtesy isn't extended to women being described (more often that men x 1000000) by their body parts.

To which you have asked us all (feminists) to be put in a corner because for some reason you don't think that we should mention it.

You are the one detracting from the thread. Not me.

SO DERAILING!
Mydogmylife · 02/12/2021 21:39

@Draggondragon

It depends if there are Muslim women there they may not be allowed to be in a room with a man depending on their husband's instructions. I read between the lines that he might be one of those mega dads and is spoiling the group with his performance parenting because I can't really believe that being male is the issue. Maybe he's just really annoying Grin
Oh ffs!
lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 21:46

offmyfence so if it happens to a man it's awful?

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

And we must not mention, ever, mention that the reason that people are being described by their body parts is a result of the trans activism agenda ?

It's terrible that the OP's husband has been treated this way but we can't talk about the context it is happening in because it's derailing????

Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 21:51

@lifeturnsonadime

offmyfence so if it happens to a man it's awful?

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

And we must not mention, ever, mention that the reason that people are being described by their body parts is a result of the trans activism agenda ?

It's terrible that the OP's husband has been treated this way but we can't talk about the context it is happening in because it's derailing????

It's not what this thread is about, go start your own thread?

You should be more sympathetic if you've experienced it, not well suck it up, you're a man and whilst you've not done a thing wrong, other men have.

I'm not engaging with you anymore, because yours using this thread for your own agenda and platform.

It's not what was asked.

Roisin78 · 02/12/2021 21:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 21:54

Very adult response @Roisin78 !

👏 👏

I think you'll find a number of posters have questioned your logic!

brightwhite · 02/12/2021 21:56

This is awful.

I attended loads of groups when mine was a baby and sometimes a dad or 2 was there (with mum, maybe 1 or 2 alone with baby).
I bf mine until after 12 months so lots of feeding in classes and if there were men there I COVERED UP just like I would if feeding when out in public.

These women are ott, did you message them on your w app group?

Good email btw!

EightWheelGirl · 02/12/2021 21:58

If it happens to a woman, and it does much more regularly, it should be confined to the naughty corner?

I’ve not heard of many instances of people wanting to exclude women based on their genitalia. It’s always men.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 21:58

I have no idea what you are talking about, Have you actually read my posts?

I have given the OP sympathy. I have said that it was inappropriate for the person running this group to speak in that way.

I have said that I believe that there should be single sex exemptions but this is not the case where one is relevant.

Any mention I have made about language has been in response to TRAs on this thread trying to hijack and to put feminists in a corner.

There was a suggestion towards the start of this that the behaviour of the woman running the group was 'anti trans' . Any post I have posted about inclusive language has been in response to people being aghast at the language being used towards this man. No feminist reduces people to body parts, that's on the TRAs/ Stonewall. All I have said is that it is misogyny to say that calling a man a penis person whilst turning a blind eye to the language women use to describe themselves being eroded.

This thread is in AIBU. Lots of people who posted before I did had a trans activist agenda. I responded to those people. Feminists should not be put in a corner or be blamed for the erosion of language.