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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

880 replies

Lividlavidacoco · 01/12/2021 20:12

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do Sad

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

OP posts:
fakereview · 02/12/2021 18:03

@Summerdayshaze

Can he start his own group? Ultimately it’s her business and her rules. They’ve decided they want it all female so the best plan would be to form another if he feels that strongly.
No it isn't. If you provide services you have to comply with the Equality Act. I think someone mentioned the gay B&B case further up the thread - ie if you run a B&B you can't stop a gay couple from renting a room with a double bed because you don't agree with homesexuality.

Same here. You can't ban people from a music group on grounds of their sex. You could potentially ban them from a breastfeeding group because of exceptions in the Act.

HappydaysArehere · 02/12/2021 18:03

@dexterslockedintheshedagain

I'd be furious! Your DH might be the only 'penis' in the group, but there seems to be more than one dick....
Absolutely. I would reply saying that you had no idea that so many vaginas would be upset by your attempts to provide your baby with a continuance of an experience he enjoys.
ClaudiaJ1 · 02/12/2021 18:03

*their

SoSoTiredToday · 02/12/2021 18:04

Wow! Can't believe they referred to your husband as 'penis'! Flip OP!! YANBU!!

This reminds me of the time my husband and I were watching our child's swimming lesson. We were in the sport centre cafe (open the public!!), Sitting at tables and chairs looking through the big glass windows at the pool, and apparently some ladies who were swimming in a water aerobics class complained that a man was looking through the glass! They asked him to stop attending and stop watching his sons swim lesson because it made them feel unomfortable!! He was with me for goodness sake!! In a cafe open to the public! And he wasn't looking at them!! He was watching his 5 year olds swimming lesson!! Xmas Angry

SoSoTiredToday · 02/12/2021 18:05

He was, by the way, deeply offended because he is such a lovely lovely guy and only was there with me to support his son! :(

User5252727 · 02/12/2021 18:06

Poor OP. Her post had nothing to do with the trans rights debate but posters on this site simply cannot resist making EVERYTHING about trans issues.

Please all piss off back to the feminism board so that those of us who avoid the toxic cesspit of that debate can use this site without being dragged into it.

roarfeckingroarr · 02/12/2021 18:16

That's horrible. I breastfeed and have no problem with men being around, least of all a fellow parent who is taking his child to a group. I'm usually the most radical of feminists but this is sad.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 18:16

Please all piss off back to the feminism board so that those of us who avoid the toxic cesspit of that debate can use this site without being dragged into into it.

You see the problem with this is that reducing people to body parts, as happened to the OPs husband, is what Feminists are fighting against not for.

Look at the outrage on this thread about this man being referred to by his body parts.

But when women are outraged by the persistent attempts to remove the word woman from common language and the fact that we have and continue to be reduced to body parts by public bodies who have adopted Stonewall policies. e.g. bodies with vaginas in a recent issue of the notable medical journal The Lancet we must be pushed into a corner.

How very misogynistic of you.

ClaudiaJ1 · 02/12/2021 18:18

@lifeturnsonadime

Please all piss off back to the feminism board so that those of us who avoid the toxic cesspit of that debate can use this site without being dragged into into it.

You see the problem with this is that reducing people to body parts, as happened to the OPs husband, is what Feminists are fighting against not for.

Look at the outrage on this thread about this man being referred to by his body parts.

But when women are outraged by the persistent attempts to remove the word woman from common language and the fact that we have and continue to be reduced to body parts by public bodies who have adopted Stonewall policies. e.g. bodies with vaginas in a recent issue of the notable medical journal The Lancet we must be pushed into a corner.

How very misogynistic of you.

👏
YanTanTetheraPetheraPimp · 02/12/2021 18:24

@lifeturnsonadime

Please all piss off back to the feminism board so that those of us who avoid the toxic cesspit of that debate can use this site without being dragged into into it.

You see the problem with this is that reducing people to body parts, as happened to the OPs husband, is what Feminists are fighting against not for.

Look at the outrage on this thread about this man being referred to by his body parts.

But when women are outraged by the persistent attempts to remove the word woman from common language and the fact that we have and continue to be reduced to body parts by public bodies who have adopted Stonewall policies. e.g. bodies with vaginas in a recent issue of the notable medical journal The Lancet we must be pushed into a corner.

How very misogynistic of you.

Well said! 👏👏
MynameisWa · 02/12/2021 18:37

I’m confused with the piss off back to the feminist thread comment. On face value I think it is very insulting to debase a human being to a sexual organ. It is almost like ‘tell that prick’ or ‘tell that cunt’ not to come. How is that progress? This is surely the way the trans Activists want it not feminists?

Weirdly, the whole thing is a paradox. On one hand it’s misandry and sexist, whilst pandering to pro trans language, which is anti feminist.

My head hurts.

mangoontoast · 02/12/2021 18:37

@lifeturnsonadime

Please all piss off back to the feminism board so that those of us who avoid the toxic cesspit of that debate can use this site without being dragged into into it.

You see the problem with this is that reducing people to body parts, as happened to the OPs husband, is what Feminists are fighting against not for.

Look at the outrage on this thread about this man being referred to by his body parts.

But when women are outraged by the persistent attempts to remove the word woman from common language and the fact that we have and continue to be reduced to body parts by public bodies who have adopted Stonewall policies. e.g. bodies with vaginas in a recent issue of the notable medical journal The Lancet we must be pushed into a corner.

How very misogynistic of you.

But we have poster after poster saying "but nobody cares when women are referred to as their body parts" despite the fact that not one single poster has disputed that! Why can't we hate anybody being referred to by their body parts of just leave it there? It's not the gotcha you think it is!
TheRigatonini · 02/12/2021 18:40

@MynameisWa

I’m confused with the piss off back to the feminist thread comment. On face value I think it is very insulting to debase a human being to a sexual organ. It is almost like ‘tell that prick’ or ‘tell that cunt’ not to come. How is that progress? This is surely the way the trans Activists want it not feminists?

Weirdly, the whole thing is a paradox. On one hand it’s misandry and sexist, whilst pandering to pro trans language, which is anti feminist.

My head hurts.

Yeah, I don’t think the woman from the baby music group thought it through very well.
AgeingDoc · 02/12/2021 18:42

@roarfeckingroarr

That's horrible. I breastfeed and have no problem with men being around, least of all a fellow parent who is taking his child to a group. I'm usually the most radical of feminists but this is sad.
I am angered by this situation precisely because I am a feminist. The women making this demand are perpetuating gender stereotypes - there's nothing feminist about that.
lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 18:45

Mangoontoast

It wasn't me asking feminists to go back to the naughty corner!

There appears to be some confusion on this thread as well. Feminists are not anti trans, they are pro the retention of women's rights and single sex spaces. They just don't want women, or men for that matter, to be reduced to their body parts. That's what trans right activists want.

Upthread someone said (and I am paraphrasing here) that this is the result of the behaviour of "anti trans" feminists. Any subsequent posts pointing out that this is illogical are in response to THAT post. I

Sofiegiraffe · 02/12/2021 18:46

But we have poster after poster saying "but nobody cares when women are referred to as their body parts" despite the fact that not one single poster has disputed that! Why can't we hate anybody being referred to by their body parts of just leave it there? It's not the gotcha you think it is!

Exactly.

Sofiegiraffe · 02/12/2021 18:47

@SoSoTiredToday

Wow! Can't believe they referred to your husband as 'penis'! Flip OP!! YANBU!!

This reminds me of the time my husband and I were watching our child's swimming lesson. We were in the sport centre cafe (open the public!!), Sitting at tables and chairs looking through the big glass windows at the pool, and apparently some ladies who were swimming in a water aerobics class complained that a man was looking through the glass! They asked him to stop attending and stop watching his sons swim lesson because it made them feel unomfortable!! He was with me for goodness sake!! In a cafe open to the public! And he wasn't looking at them!! He was watching his 5 year olds swimming lesson!! Xmas Angry

This is madness.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 18:48

And to be clear as this is a music group it appears that the woman running it was off the mark. There is no need for a music group for babies to be a single sex space.

The language she used was as appalling as referring to women by their body parts.

ElectraBlue · 02/12/2021 19:05

Disgusting.

Discrimination works both ways. And I can't believe your husband was described as a 'penis'.

I would send an email back stating that you do not appreciate the father of your child being described as a 'penis' and remind this person that there is such a thing as discrimination. Tell her that you expect an apology and that you are considering legal action against her business for discrimination and slander. That will calm her down quickly...You could say you will bring this to the local media too.

Beafaith · 02/12/2021 19:10

I bet the press would have a field day at this..I think its shocking

Roisin78 · 02/12/2021 19:13

No, but you did seem to suggest that women should be allowed to unilaterally declare a space as women only and exclude others who attend regularly on that basis.

Business owners are allowed to do just that under the equality act, there are single sex exemptions for just this reason. I understand your DH is upset but at the end of the day if a group of women want a female only group then they're allowed to do that. Why does your husband still want to go and why are you both pushing for this despite knowing his presence is making women feel uncomfortable 🙄
The owner tried to have a parents group and it didn't work so she changed the policy, many women don't want mixed sex groups. There's nothing to stop dads setting up their own.

dumdedumpop · 02/12/2021 19:19

@Roisin78

No, but you did seem to suggest that women should be allowed to unilaterally declare a space as women only and exclude others who attend regularly on that basis.

Business owners are allowed to do just that under the equality act, there are single sex exemptions for just this reason. I understand your DH is upset but at the end of the day if a group of women want a female only group then they're allowed to do that. Why does your husband still want to go and why are you both pushing for this despite knowing his presence is making women feel uncomfortable 🙄
The owner tried to have a parents group and it didn't work so she changed the policy, many women don't want mixed sex groups. There's nothing to stop dads setting up their own.

I haven't seen anything in the OP's posts to suggest the group was a "mother's only" group rather than a "parents group"? It's a baby music group. Not a breastfeeding group. I absolutely hold up the right for women to have single sex safe spaces, but this isn't what this is. I'd also be bloody livid!
Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 19:20

@Roisin78

No, but you did seem to suggest that women should be allowed to unilaterally declare a space as women only and exclude others who attend regularly on that basis.

Business owners are allowed to do just that under the equality act, there are single sex exemptions for just this reason. I understand your DH is upset but at the end of the day if a group of women want a female only group then they're allowed to do that. Why does your husband still want to go and why are you both pushing for this despite knowing his presence is making women feel uncomfortable 🙄
The owner tried to have a parents group and it didn't work so she changed the policy, many women don't want mixed sex groups. There's nothing to stop dads setting up their own.

But what's wrong with it being parents? It's part of a franchise also, so is the franchise going to stop this across its whole network?

Why are you so happy to stop a child's development because the mothers "uncomfortableness" trumps that does it?

Not many SAHD, not fucking surprised with attitudes like yours, so he's hardly going to set up a group? Also he may not have time, if a woman said that it would be a valid reason, so presumably he can say that.

I'm so glad your archaic attitude is well in the minority.

That's refreshing.

Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 19:24

@Roisin78 why does the dad still want to go?

For the benefit of his child, is that acceptable?

Butteredtoast55 · 02/12/2021 19:30

Excellent email OP - eloquent, assertive and clear. I really hope there is a climbdown as it grieves me that we are in the 21st century and we are moving backwards in some ways.
My DH took our children to similar groups nearly 30 years ago and women never had an issue breastfeeding with him there, yet here we are three decades later treating a man like a predator for just being a good Dad. How will we ever have a healthy, balanced society with that attitude?