To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

@CounsellorTroi

“Interesting to ask if they would exclude a gay couple with two dads...

Discrimination is discrimination.”

Or a transman who had given birth and was breastfeeding.

To be honest I assumed this is why she’d chosen the word penis – with a nod to being inclusive to trans men who have given birth. Which.... is it transphobic? Are trans men not considered to be men in the same way as other men? Isn’t the trans emphasis on labels rather than biology? Isn’t sex irrelevant in that model?

Fascinated by the implications of this.

@HorsdoeuvresInTheGarage

I hope all those outraged by the penis reference, are equally outraged by women being reduced to body parts or functions, which happens a lot these days. Somehow I doubt it. It's basically what JKR was pilloried for pointing out.

Why do you doubt it? You think people can't be angry at more than one type of discrimination at a time? You don't think some of us simply believe in equality?

I'm GC. I believe if you have XY chromosomes you're a man and if you have XX chromosomes you're a woman. I don't care if someone wants to call themselves the opposite of what they are, as long as they don't expye everyone else to believe it's true. I don't care what someone's sexuality is. I don't care what surgery someone has, whether that's eg to remove a burst appendix, Botox, breast augmentation or castration, none of it is my business. I don't care what clothes someone chooses to wear or not wear as long as they abide by decency laws, so as not to offend others or get themselves arrested for exposing themselves in public, because the police are busy enough. I believe women have a right to women only spaces. I believe everyone, including DC, have the right to be safe.

I don't agree with women being called eg "menstruators" or "vagina havers", although I suppose at least the second one is accurate, the first one definitely isn't, but accurate or not it's rude and dismissive of the person. I can still believe it's wrong for a man to be called "a penis". A "penis haver" would be more likely to be accurate, but is still an unnecessary way to refer to someone.

And the company's actions in excluding OP's DH from the toddler group would still be discriminatory, regardless of whatever language they used.

WTF that is so wrong and discriminatory wow.. surely they breastfeed around their own partners (assuming they are male and have a penis)?

I love seeing dads attend groups where it's mostly just mums, it's so nice to see. And it usually means mum is getting a break!

Your reply was brilliant.. looking forward to hearing her response.

@HorsdoeuvresInTheGarage they are both equally awful, one is not worse than the other.
Great response OP, very measured and well put.

Can he start his own group? Ultimately it’s her business and her rules. They’ve decided they want it all female so the best plan would be to form another if he feels that strongly.

@Summerdayshaze

Can he start his own group? Ultimately it’s her business and her rules. They’ve decided they want it all female so the best plan would be to form another if he feels that strongly.

Her business and her rules... Which are illegal

Would you be telling them to start a new group if it was because he was eg gay, or foreign?

@Summerdayshaze

Can he start his own group? Ultimately it’s her business and her rules. They’ve decided they want it all female so the best plan would be to form another if he feels that strongly.

As a business owner she needs to keep within the law. I think this is all covered by The Equality act 2010, a law she seems to be breaking.

As a bloke I have felt unwelcome in a couple of parent/toddler parent/baby groups when the other parents have been mostly women. Most groups have been absolutely fine but there were a couple that felt unwelcoming.

I put it down to my social awkwardness and paranoia but this makes me think I genuinely wasn't wanted.

I hope she reconsiders and he continues going.

This is one post I hope the national press does pick up on, that is shocking!

@Summerdayshaze

Can he start his own group? Ultimately it’s her business and her rules. They’ve decided they want it all female so the best plan would be to form another if he feels that strongly.

It’s not her business and her rules though. She runs a franchise. Her “rules” are also breaking the law.

[quote nanbread]@ClaudiaJ1 what exactly did I start?

To exclude a trans woman for having a penis is just as discriminatory as excluding the dad in this scenario.

And trans people can adopt ergo a trans woman can legally be a mother. Whether you like it or not.[/quote]
No, they cannot become a mother, whether you like it or not. Not through DNA, science, biology or anatomy.

@Summerdayshaze

Can he start his own group? Ultimately it’s her business and her rules. They’ve decided they want it all female so the best plan would be to form another if he feels that strongly.

Maybe her business however that doesn't mean her rules

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23240113.amp

An example of a business owner having to not discriminate!

Just because you own a business, doesn't mean you can discriminate, quite rightly!

It's not really just her business, is it? Even if that was a good argument for being a discriminatory tosser. She's a franchisee and presumably there are rules about how the franchises are run from the overseeing body. I can't imagine they'd be pleased about it. All the franchised baby classes I've gone to - swimming, sign language baby sensory - have all welcome fathers.

Wow @ClaudiaJ1 I wonder how all the people who adopted children feel reading what you wrote. Awful.

@nanbread

Wow *@ClaudiaJ1* I wonder how all the people who adopted children feel reading what you wrote. Awful.

Please don't gaslight here. I never said anything against adoptees. A biological male who adopts is still a father. Same as with a biological woman.

WTAF???? Thats OUTRAGEOUS

Haven’t read all the thread but did they actually call your DH a PENIS? If so, I am livid for you to the degree that I would want to get legal advice and/or go to the national press about this.

@Lividlavidacoco Livid that was an outstanding email which was articulated in a way that I could never....! Well fucking done! Very well done. Have you had a reply yet?

'I'm sorry you were offended by a penis. Since you're such a dick yourself I didn't think you'd mind'

@ClaudiaJ1, are you saying people can only ever be mothers if they have given birth to their children? Have you discussed that with adoptive mothers?

@GreenGlowLightly

If I’d gone to a group , where we are breast feeding, I wouldn’t be happy with a man there at all. If I went to a group where it was mixed and men were expected, I might not go, if it clashed with feeding, or I would go , and not feed at the same time, most likely.

If its always been only women who attended, and suddenly a man attended to, and I was breastfeeding, I wouldn’t be happy.

But if I wasn’t breastfeeding, it had always been women in attendance, and I WASNT, breastfeeding, I wouldn’t care at all.

Human nature I guess.

I think the breastfeeding mums have a point, as do you.

This poor lady wants to make a living. I feel for her dilemma really

If you insist your husband attends, expect it to be the two of them,and then neither, when it closes.

This is the reality

But your feelings are your issue, they're not for everyone to tiptoe around. It's not others job to make you feel better. Just because you feel something, that doesn't make it right to act on it/have others act on it.

The breastfeeding mums don't have a point. They're entitled to their opinions and their feelings, but they're not entitled to have the space to themselves just because a man happens to have never attended before. They're not entitled to have the group leader illegally discriminate against someone just because they'd prefer things not to change and want their own way. The breastfeeding mums have no more rights to attend the group than OPs DH does. So if they're the ones not happy, they should leave.

Same with whoever said however nice they are, dads can make it awkward for mums to talk about birth issues just by being present. Nobody is disputing that. And if this was a new mum's support group, you'd have a point. But it's a baby music group, so you don't. This group doesn't exist to facilitate women talking about birth issues.

Just noticed your comment about alleged gaslighting, @ClaudiaJ1. Unfortunately it doesn't work. You said that people could not become mothers "through DNA, science, biology or anatomy." If that is the criterion, it has to apply equally to adoptive mothers and indeed to stepmothers.

[quote Platax]@ClaudiaJ1, are you saying people can only ever be mothers if they have given birth to their children? Have you discussed that with adoptive mothers?[/quote]
@Platax NO! nanbread is being manipulative and gaslighting me, they brought in adoptive mothers, not me. I said a woman is a mother, a man is a father. Then, she brought in adoptive mothers to muddy the waters. Adoptive parents are real parents. I have never said otherwise. All I said was that if you have a penis you aren't a mother. Which is backed up by DNA and anatomy.

@Platax

Just noticed your comment about alleged gaslighting, *@ClaudiaJ1*. Unfortunately it doesn't work. You said that people could not become mothers "through DNA, science, biology or anatomy." If that is the criterion, it has to apply equally to adoptive mothers and indeed to stepmothers.

@Platax I was referring to people with penises calling themselves mothers. Ie you can't change your DNA. You can't change your sex.

Nothing even remotely, absolutely anything at all about adoptions.

This is how the TRAs twist the discussion when it doesn't go there way.