To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

@nanbread The fact is the Meninists, femphobes/TRAs started all this by calling women 'menstruators', uterus havers, 'cervix havers' and 'vagina havers'. And even 'vagina'. If the OP's situation is real, the email sender called her DH a penis. BECAUSE that is the template the TRAs created.

So this is all down to them and their fault. They started calling women by their genitals. So now a woman called a man by their genitals. Fair's fair.

That's the consequence when you start relegating people to their genitals, as the TRAs, femphobes and misogynist meninists have. Their chickens are coming home to roost.

[quote MumW]**@jamie85,
Going against the grain here. I actually understand exactly where you are coming from and think you are being given a hard time unfairly.

As breastfeeding Mums, we should be aware of our surroundings and act sensitively towards others. I breastfed in public wherever and whenever my babies needed to. However, I was always discrete and wore suitable tops or used a shawl so that I didn't make anyone uncomfortable.

I think that @jamie85 is referring to the minority who feel it is ok to expose their entire breast by dropping down, for example, a vest top and lifting the breast over the top. I think this akin to a man dropping his trousers and exposing his entire penis to pee in public rather than discretely hopping behind a bush or peeing against a tree with his back turned to the crowd.[/quote]
No, what you've just described is actually akin to a women dropping her trousers and exposing her genitalia for whatever purpose.

There was a dad group in my home town when mine were little. Maybe dh could start his own? Gets men talking too. There'll be some lonely sahds out there.

@EdgeOfTheSky

All credit to your DH, OP, for not taking it personally / to heart.

Part of the sexism in this is that the organiser e mailed YOU about HIS group membership. Which was both cowardly and assuming that even a SAHD cannot be allowed to manage his own group attendance.

I would go berserk if a group organiser contacted my DH about my attendance.

Dismal all round.

This was one of my first thoughts as well, however I did consider the fact that since the OP was the one who attend the first class, it is entirely possible that the woman running the group did not have the fathers contact information, phone number, email.

Interesting to ask if they would exclude a gay couple with two dads...

Discrimination is discrimination.

Great response OP!

Daily Mail, where are you?

[quote MumW]**@jamie85,
Going against the grain here. I actually understand exactly where you are coming from and think you are being given a hard time unfairly.

As breastfeeding Mums, we should be aware of our surroundings and act sensitively towards others. I breastfed in public wherever and whenever my babies needed to. However, I was always discrete and wore suitable tops or used a shawl so that I didn't make anyone uncomfortable.

I think that @jamie85 is referring to the minority who feel it is ok to expose their entire breast by dropping down, for example, a vest top and lifting the breast over the top. I think this akin to a man dropping his trousers and exposing his entire penis to pee in public rather than discretely hopping behind a bush or peeing against a tree with his back turned to the crowd.[/quote]
How are they the same? How is feeding a baby the same as taking a piss in public?

I agree with nanbread that in this instance it would be discriminatory to exclude a transwoman but don't think that's really relevant to the situation under discussion. This is nothing to do with whether transwomen should be allowed in women's spaces because the whole crux of the matter is that this is not a women only space, nor a space exclusively for mothers. It is an activity for babies who obviously have to come with a carer. That carer does not have to be the mother, biological or otherwise. It could be the father, a grandparent, other relative, nanny, childminder or anyone else legitimately caring for the child - the sex of the carer should be irrelevant in this circumstance. This is just plain old fashioned sexism, and, as usual, whilst it may seem to be directed at a man here, it's actually misogyny.

@Lividlavidacoco

So I’ve replied (thanks for the help)

Hi Leader,

MrLivid and I find your email deeply troubling. In a time when we all strive for equality, it is very concerning that you would feel it’s appropriate to exclude DH on the basis of his sex. DH is a stay at home parent and has given up his career in order to enable mine. In order to normalise this, we must see men as care givers, fathers and equal parents and never simply as ‘penises’ in the same way that we would never teach our children that ‘vaginas’ should stay at home as breeders and not be earners, breadwinners or career climbers.

I understand the reference to yourself as a small business and your fear that you will lose clients by allowing DH to attend groups. I would suggest though that here, a question of right and wrong has arisen and you have chosen to side with wrong in order to avoid rocking a very outdated boat. I have garnered opinion from a few friends and trusted members of local mums groups and every single one has expressed their disappointment that in 2021, we are still struggling to see men as parents without them being accused of being some kind of predator. You went one step further and chose to refer to DH by his genitals which is deeply offensive on many levels. My suggestion here is that by feeling justified in treating a fellow parent in this way, you are risking more business than you think.

Indeed, if on receipt of your reply you still feel it’s justified to exclude DH (in direct contradiction to FRANCHISE NAME’s values of inclusivity to all parents and carers) I’ll be forwarding this email chain directly to FRANCHISE NAME as a formal complaint.

After speaking to DH, although he is very hurt by the accusation that he poses a threat to breastfeeding mothers, he would like to continue to attend the group because DS enjoys it and it is the only group in the area open to male parents.

Please take time to reconsider your position and I await your response.

Regards,

Livid.

I don't think I've ever heard anything so beautifully written in all my life. I feel that you should consider a 'side-hustle' in writing letters of complaints for people 😂

Please let us know of any response you get. It's an outrageous, appalling and incredibly offensive thing to have happened.

I say 'heard' but obviously mean 'read' ...

@User5252727 I can believe this stance. A while back there was a very entertaining thread saying that breastfeeding in public. Someone did actually post that breastfeeding was as bad was as bad as public urination. 😂

It is totally fine to have female-only mother and baby groups, (and, contrary to what some PPs have suggested, it is not against the equality act and would not count as discrimination as reasonable exceptions for sex-segregated spaces are allowed).

But this is not a mother and baby group. It’s a baby music group.

So this is all down to them and their fault. They started calling women by their genitals. So now a woman called a man by their genitals. Fair's fair.

Ridiculous outlook. The sender of the email still is individual autonomy and choice with her use of terminology! No one is forcing her to send an unprofessionally worded email referring to a person as a penis - that's on her and her alone. And no, it's not "fair". It's outrageous.

*still has

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea

Ask about the policy regarding inspecting each persons gentiles while attending the group? Presumably no one checked yours and no one has checked his? Who's to say he even has a penis.

Write back and tell them that they just be mistaken as his penis fell off a few years ago and see if they ask for proof.

This! 😂💀 Maybe suggest group leader gets therapy if she can look at a human with hair, ears, nose, eyes, limbs etc and despite there not being one on display, all she can see is a giant penis 💀💀💀

[quote sqirrelfriends]@User5252727 I can believe this stance. A while back there was a very entertaining thread saying that breastfeeding in public. Someone did actually post that breastfeeding was as bad was as bad as public urination. 😂

[/quote]
Some people are absolutely insane

There was one stay at home Dad when I was a kid and he was like a celebrity. All the mums thought he was wonderful (which he was). I hope you're husband gets on well despite a bumpy start.

And that woman is crazy crazy crazy. I suspect she was drunk.

@CounsellorTroi

It is totally fine to have female-only mother and baby groups, (and, contrary to what some PPs have suggested, it is not against the equality act and would not count as discrimination as reasonable exceptions for sex-segregated spaces are allowed).

But this is not a mother and baby group. It’s a baby music group.

And it would also have be described and advertised as such as an exemption to the Equality Act. A baby music group would not qualify.

@LampLighter414

Yanbu but unfortunately this is what the terf and anti trans movement is doing to the world

TERF is an appalling phrase to use.

And wanting to maintain spaces for biological women is not anti trans. Trans people need their own spaces.

@OneMorePieceofCheese

Interesting to ask if they would exclude a gay couple with two dads...

Discrimination is discrimination.

Or a transman who had given birth and was breastfeeding.

She referred to your DH as 'a penis' . How odd...

Well done OP.

As you rightly stated in your email, removing dads from parents' spaces is damaging to women.

Women should be campaigning for more integration of fathers into parenting spaces, not the reverse.

It also doesn't do any favors for the breastfeeding debate when women say they feel uncomfortable breastfeeding around men. Men aren't allowed to feel uncomfortable when we breastfeed around them, rightly so. There is no embarrassment in breastfeeding. That works both ways.

You should be nothing for continuing with your career and for standing up for your dh.

Let's not mix up the trans debate in this. Let's not mix up parents' spaces with women's ones.

You are mother and father, not mother and penis. Your dh has every right to be at a parenting group.

You should be nothing but proud*

Just because some people wish to remove the word " woman" from anything which implies that it refers to female biology, is no excuse for women to humiliate men by referring to them as body parts. If it is humiliating to be referred to as a cervix haver, bleeder, menstruator etc, then it is equally humiliating to refer to members of the opposite sex as penis havers, prostate owners etc.
As to single sex spaces, certainly there are places which should be exclusively for biological women such as prisons, refuges, showers, hospital wards etc but to exclude a male person from a baby music group is not right. Moreover, I see no problem for breast feeding mother's as it is quite possible to feed discretely.

Op, please ignore some of the batshittery occurring in here and come back to update us 🤞🙈