To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

It’s a rudely worded email, but I can see her point. If the group has always been women only she may fear losing all her regular customers, or putting off new joiners.

I doubt that she would lose her regular customers, few women are this precious about breastfeeding in public - we've been fighting for the right to do so too long! She might even gain customers if OP's husband spreads the word amongst his Dad friends.

secretly hopes the Daily Fail pick this up

YANBU - I too support safe spaces, it's a music group from babies and PARENTS,

Yes, to daily fail picking this up.

@jamie85,
Going against the grain here. I actually understand exactly where you are coming from and think you are being given a hard time unfairly.

As breastfeeding Mums, we should be aware of our surroundings and act sensitively towards others. I breastfed in public wherever and whenever my babies needed to. However, I was always discrete and wore suitable tops or used a shawl so that I didn't make anyone uncomfortable.

I think that @jamie85 is referring to the minority who feel it is ok to expose their entire breast by dropping down, for example, a vest top and lifting the breast over the top. I think this akin to a man dropping his trousers and exposing his entire penis to pee in public rather than discretely hopping behind a bush or peeing against a tree with his back turned to the crowd.

Gay dad parent here - I’ve actually always been very much welcomed to groups and am surprised something like this would come up. Also think it’s a bit ridiculous to not be told this to his face!!! If the shy breastfeeding brigade were that upset they could have said something there and then!

Not sure where you live but I have always managed to find free groups which don’t discriminate….!

The DF only picks up stories which can be summarised as "bunch of opinionated woman argue about trivial issue".

So I don't think this thread meets their objectives.

YANBU. It's a group for babies to be taken by their parents, not a female only space, and it sounds like those are available should local mums want them. This is clearly discriminatory.

And referring to him as a penis... astounding.

[quote MumW]**@jamie85,
Going against the grain here. I actually understand exactly where you are coming from and think you are being given a hard time unfairly.

As breastfeeding Mums, we should be aware of our surroundings and act sensitively towards others. I breastfed in public wherever and whenever my babies needed to. However, I was always discrete and wore suitable tops or used a shawl so that I didn't make anyone uncomfortable.

I think that @jamie85 is referring to the minority who feel it is ok to expose their entire breast by dropping down, for example, a vest top and lifting the breast over the top. I think this akin to a man dropping his trousers and exposing his entire penis to pee in public rather than discretely hopping behind a bush or peeing against a tree with his back turned to the crowd.[/quote]
It's really not though.

If a woman gasp feeding her child shows a bit of boob then anyone uncomfortable with that can just utilise their neck muscles to look in a different direction.

[quote MumW]**@jamie85,
Going against the grain here. I actually understand exactly where you are coming from and think you are being given a hard time unfairly.

As breastfeeding Mums, we should be aware of our surroundings and act sensitively towards others. I breastfed in public wherever and whenever my babies needed to. However, I was always discrete and wore suitable tops or used a shawl so that I didn't make anyone uncomfortable.

I think that @jamie85 is referring to the minority who feel it is ok to expose their entire breast by dropping down, for example, a vest top and lifting the breast over the top. I think this akin to a man dropping his trousers and exposing his entire penis to pee in public rather than discretely hopping behind a bush or peeing against a tree with his back turned to the crowd.[/quote]
Don’t be so ridiculous. One Up, One Fown is a massive faff so I deliberately pick clothes I can Flop One Out in because it’s easier and more convenient for me.

Nobody is seeing anything they wouldn’t see if I was in a bikini on the beach or at the swimming pool, and even if they were, so what? That’s their problem. I’m just trying to feed my baby.

I can't believe anyone thinks it's ok to exclude and discriminate against an 8 month old baby on the basis that he has a SAHF
Breastfeeding group is clearly for mum's, breastfeeding can be tough. Fair enough. A music class is for babies though.

Excellent email

WAIS fir her response

And hope she grovels

@FateHasRedesignedMost

It’s a rudely worded email, but I can see her point. If the group has always been women only she may fear losing all her regular customers, or putting off new joiners.

I found it odd having 1 male in a room of females eg at baby sensory or baby yoga. Obviously I said nothing, but I wondered why they wanted to go to a group that was clearly female orientated (one dad tried to join in with conversations about breastfeeding problems and birth injuries, using his poor wife as an example!) I get he wanted to be included but a lot of mum-baby groups are safe spaces where women get together and chat about things they’d not discuss in front of men.

I wouldn’t care about a man watching me breastfeed or even talking to me about it if he had a baby, but I know some women would be very uncomfortable and feel the need to cover up.

This attitude creates a vicious circle; one dad goes to a parent and baby group. You find it odd. Even if you say nothing he feels a bit out of place. Dad doesn’t feel welcome.

@ClaudiaJ1 what exactly did I start?

To exclude a trans woman for having a penis is just as discriminatory as excluding the dad in this scenario.

And trans people can adopt ergo a trans woman can legally be a mother. Whether you like it or not.

The email was probably missing a word "haver" as in "penis haver".

After all it's increasingly common that if you aren't a "penis haver" then you are a uterus-haver or a cervix haver.

I think the words man and woman will die off eventually.

As for it being mum and parent it must be because some uterus-havers don't like feminine parenting words (mum, mother etc) and actually want to be referred to with neutral or masculine parenting words (dad, father etc).

I suspect the group is for uterus havers, trans men and enbys. Perhaps the group is using the single sex exemption?

Though with it being a music group I don't think there's any reason why it should be single sex? That's the thing to challenge.

Good luck.

No need for any genital inspections RuggerHug. Everyone knows instinctively who is a man and who is a woman. People rarely pass as the opposite sex.

If this actually happened it is trans activism that has led to it not women trying to protect their right to single sex spaces provided by the Equality Act.

Great DARVO though, classic TRA behaviour.

Great reversal attempt though.

@lifeturnsonadime

No need for any genital inspections RuggerHug. Everyone knows instinctively who is a man and who is a woman. People rarely pass as the opposite sex.

If this actually happened it is trans activism that has led to it not women trying to protect their right to single sex spaces provided by the Equality Act.

Great DARVO though, classic TRA behaviour.

Great reversal attempt though.

AH, 'we can always tell'. No, you can't. And being horrified at what OP has been sent, would be cheered over if the person who made the complaint that caused it posted on another part of mumsnet. But of course, the reality of their actions causing harm to non trans people can't be acknowledged.

I've asked for MNHQ to please remove my previous post. There's just no point in arguing.

I think some groups need to be single sex.
Breastfeeding, rape trauma groups etc

It's a music class though so I find this very weird.

Can you ask the question on whether she has organised this to be a single sex situation?

The group leader should have nipped this in the bud with the other women and told them that it is a group for babies, regardless of who brings them!

Great email OP. Completely agree with your take on this and good on your DH for being so nice about it (and co parenting)

[quote MumW]**@jamie85,
Going against the grain here. I actually understand exactly where you are coming from and think you are being given a hard time unfairly.

As breastfeeding Mums, we should be aware of our surroundings and act sensitively towards others. I breastfed in public wherever and whenever my babies needed to. However, I was always discrete and wore suitable tops or used a shawl so that I didn't make anyone uncomfortable.

I think that @jamie85 is referring to the minority who feel it is ok to expose their entire breast by dropping down, for example, a vest top and lifting the breast over the top. I think this akin to a man dropping his trousers and exposing his entire penis to pee in public rather than discretely hopping behind a bush or peeing against a tree with his back turned to the crowd.[/quote]
What? The whole purpose of breasts is to feed babies. Why should women have to hide it? It's not shameful and not remotely similar to a man exposing his penis in public. Adults can be expected to wait to urinate until they can get to a toilet. Babies need feeding straight away when hungry. Anybody offended by a woman breastfeeding in public should stay at home themselves until they've had some therapy to deal with their issues.