To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

@FateHasRedesignedMost

It’s a rudely worded email, but I can see her point. If the group has always been women only she may fear losing all her regular customers, or putting off new joiners.

I found it odd having 1 male in a room of females eg at baby sensory or baby yoga. Obviously I said nothing, but I wondered why they wanted to go to a group that was clearly female orientated (one dad tried to join in with conversations about breastfeeding problems and birth injuries, using his poor wife as an example!) I get he wanted to be included but a lot of mum-baby groups are safe spaces where women get together and chat about things they’d not discuss in front of men.

I wouldn’t care about a man watching me breastfeed or even talking to me about it if he had a baby, but I know some women would be very uncomfortable and feel the need to cover up.

It's a baby music group, not a breastfeeding support group or anything specifically aimed at women.

Men want to go to these groups for exactly the same reasons as women do.

@FateHasRedesignedMost

It’s a rudely worded email, but I can see her point. If the group has always been women only she may fear losing all her regular customers, or putting off new joiners.

I found it odd having 1 male in a room of females eg at baby sensory or baby yoga. Obviously I said nothing, but I wondered why they wanted to go to a group that was clearly female orientated (one dad tried to join in with conversations about breastfeeding problems and birth injuries, using his poor wife as an example!) I get he wanted to be included but a lot of mum-baby groups are safe spaces where women get together and chat about things they’d not discuss in front of men.

I wouldn’t care about a man watching me breastfeed or even talking to me about it if he had a baby, but I know some women would be very uncomfortable and feel the need to cover up.

Genuinely, what is female oriented about baby yoga or baby sensory? Those are very clearly baby oriented, not female oriented.

We honestly have to get away from this idea that child-rearing is more a mother's job than a father's. Apart from the fact that it totally ignores the existence of single dads and gay couples with kids, the idea hurts women more than anything. Women don't benefit from being thought of as default primary carers. We don't benefit from our careers always taking the hit, our ambitions always being viewed as secondary to motherhood, our free time seen as less valuable, the mental load always being ours, it always being us facing discrimination due to being mothers.

A breastfeeding group is a bit different, but breastfeeding at a baby group doesn't make it a breastfeeding group. Dads have every right to be at baby groups with their babies. If a woman feels uncomfortable about feeding in front of men, she can find alternatives (feed before or after the class, ask if there is a private room she can use, nip out to the car, sit facing away from the group, express and use a bottle in public, cover with a muslin, practice not giving a shit about doing something natural and normal in front of others).

The solution very obviously can't be to ban dads as though they aren't equally valid parents who deserve to be there too.

Well I mean the Dad Group should obviously be called the Penis Group 🤔😄

I'm aghast at this thread. My DS is 44 and I went to a baby and toddler club with him. It was held in a church hall and we would sit and bf our babies. The male vicar often joined us for a coffee and a chat and none of us objected and continued to bf. He became a SAHF for many years and felt unwelcome at these groups so my DGS never got to go to one.

I thought attitudes had moved on, but clearly we were more advanced almost 45 years ago.

@jamie85

I was trying to point to the contrasts between those who just quietly do it, the majority, and those attention seekers who seem to want to make a production out of it.

1. Literally nobody gives a shit about your opinions on the modesty or immodesty of breastfeeding

1. Unless you've ever made an attempt to hoist one of your sweaty man boobs out from beneath whatever stained sci-fi t-shirt you're wearing and feed a baby with it, I doubt you have any idea whatsoever about how hard it is to do 'modestly', therefore please refer back to point 1.

I'd pursue it with the Franchise head office OP, purely go teach the leader a very costly lesson. Baby music is not a breastfeeding group. It is for all parents.

I can't believe what I've just read! 😤😤😤 your reply is fantastic though. Well done!

There’s no way that at least a few of the complainers haven’t seen this post by now - most mothers of babies are MNetters at some point or another. Hopefully they’ll see the (justified) collective outrage at the email and think again.

I do think it’s worthy of the escalation you describe in your response email, OP, but it could be tricky to attend the group at the same time.

I wonder if theres scope for your DH to rally some local parents to arrange an alternative group with a clear agreement for people attending to ensure this isn't repeated?

Can't wait to see their response!

That is a fantastic email OP.

Looking forward to the update

@YouSetTheTone I know, it's awful. Women's needs for safety are rarely deemed important enough to have a female-only space. We've been gaslit to think this is ok for fear of abuse.

In this case I don't think such a space is needed, it's an entirely different scenario.

Your email back was very good!! Of course he should be allowed to the group. It's for babies to enjoy music

Please tell me this is a joke?
WOW! I can't believe they have referred to your husband as a penis and also, suggesting he couldn't possibly be in the same room as women breast feeding because what, he might be turned on?! Do these women not feed their babies in front of men in general or is it just your husband that offends them?

I am so shocked at how disgusting this is!!

@Lividlavidacoco

So I’ve replied (thanks for the help)

Hi Leader,

MrLivid and I find your email deeply troubling. In a time when we all strive for equality, it is very concerning that you would feel it’s appropriate to exclude DH on the basis of his sex. DH is a stay at home parent and has given up his career in order to enable mine. In order to normalise this, we must see men as care givers, fathers and equal parents and never simply as ‘penises’ in the same way that we would never teach our children that ‘vaginas’ should stay at home as breeders and not be earners, breadwinners or career climbers.

I understand the reference to yourself as a small business and your fear that you will lose clients by allowing DH to attend groups. I would suggest though that here, a question of right and wrong has arisen and you have chosen to side with wrong in order to avoid rocking a very outdated boat. I have garnered opinion from a few friends and trusted members of local mums groups and every single one has expressed their disappointment that in 2021, we are still struggling to see men as parents without them being accused of being some kind of predator. You went one step further and chose to refer to DH by his genitals which is deeply offensive on many levels. My suggestion here is that by feeling justified in treating a fellow parent in this way, you are risking more business than you think.

Indeed, if on receipt of your reply you still feel it’s justified to exclude DH (in direct contradiction to FRANCHISE NAME’s values of inclusivity to all parents and carers) I’ll be forwarding this email chain directly to FRANCHISE NAME as a formal complaint.

After speaking to DH, although he is very hurt by the accusation that he poses a threat to breastfeeding mothers, he would like to continue to attend the group because DS enjoys it and it is the only group in the area open to male parents.

Please take time to reconsider your position and I await your response.

Regards,

Livid.

This email is perfect! And you should be proud at how well you put your point across! Well done OP! Hope your DH is ok and it hasn't put a dampener on the group for him!

@Lividlavidacoco

So I’ve replied (thanks for the help)

Hi Leader,

MrLivid and I find your email deeply troubling. In a time when we all strive for equality, it is very concerning that you would feel it’s appropriate to exclude DH on the basis of his sex. DH is a stay at home parent and has given up his career in order to enable mine. In order to normalise this, we must see men as care givers, fathers and equal parents and never simply as ‘penises’ in the same way that we would never teach our children that ‘vaginas’ should stay at home as breeders and not be earners, breadwinners or career climbers.

I understand the reference to yourself as a small business and your fear that you will lose clients by allowing DH to attend groups. I would suggest though that here, a question of right and wrong has arisen and you have chosen to side with wrong in order to avoid rocking a very outdated boat. I have garnered opinion from a few friends and trusted members of local mums groups and every single one has expressed their disappointment that in 2021, we are still struggling to see men as parents without them being accused of being some kind of predator. You went one step further and chose to refer to DH by his genitals which is deeply offensive on many levels. My suggestion here is that by feeling justified in treating a fellow parent in this way, you are risking more business than you think.

Indeed, if on receipt of your reply you still feel it’s justified to exclude DH (in direct contradiction to FRANCHISE NAME’s values of inclusivity to all parents and carers) I’ll be forwarding this email chain directly to FRANCHISE NAME as a formal complaint.

After speaking to DH, although he is very hurt by the accusation that he poses a threat to breastfeeding mothers, he would like to continue to attend the group because DS enjoys it and it is the only group in the area open to male parents.

Please take time to reconsider your position and I await your response.

Regards,

Livid.

Wow - that is perfectly worded! I hope you get a reasonable response from the group leader.

It is utterly unacceptable for them to exclude a parent from a group aimed AT parents!!

The sad thing is even if she backs down he won’t feel welcome. Any chance of persuading his 3 male friends to join music too?
Would love you to update when you get a response from her, the franchise and whoever they rent room from.
My DD’s an older teen but there were dads at both music groups, baby swimming and baby massage and I’m not in a trendy area. Can’t believe in 2021 this is happening. What she doing next week whites only classes?

@Lividlavidacoco

I’m still furious but DH’s response (and it speaks volumes about him) was to laugh and say he expects it was a knee jerk reaction and he’s not hurt, just a bit disappointed because DS will miss out.

He’s got 4 dad friends who are also stay at home parents during the week so he’s meeting them for a coffee today and he says he’ll ask if they faced similar issues. We informally call it Dad Group but maybe that should actually be a thing??

Imagine starting dad group for penis having parents only!! Dear parent with vagina, you're not welcome because parents with penises are scared of your breasts!

There would be uproar!!

This is one thread I hope actually hits the papers to show how bloody ridiculous it is!! Glad you DP isn't too upset over though but it is a shame your DS has to miss out.

All 3 of the other dads should join thr music group in protest

Wtf?! A penis? Are there no boy babies there? They all have penis's too! I can't believe she referred to him as "a penis"
I've also never had a problem breastfeeding at a baby group, every there is a parent and knows breastfeeding is how babies are fed, it's not sexual 🙄 sometimes it's a bit different when it's men that are not dad's but at baby groups I never found it a problem.
I'd be sending an email back, explaining exactly what I thought!

Well done OP.
That's a great reply to an appallingly sexist email. I completely support the need for women only spaces when it's appropriate, but this isn't a women only space, it's an activity for babies and toddlers. To exclude male caregivers on the basis of sex is no better than if the sport club that I take my son to were to ban us because I'm the only Mum who goes and the Dads don't like it.
It's not a bf support group (which I agree should be women only), it is an every day activity where some women may wish to perform another every day activity ie feed their babies. Totally different to a specific support group. Mothers have a right to feed their babies anywhere that they are entitled to be, but not to kick out other people who are also entitled to be there whilst they do it. And trying to do that does nothing to normalise breastfeeding and support women.
As well as being offensive to the OP's DH the whole underlying message is deeply misogynistic. Let's keep the women in the home doing the childrearing where they belong, and breastfeeding is something that shouldn't be done in the presence of men? And that's even before we get into describing any human being as no more than their genitals. You did well to compose a polite reply OP. I hope the leader, and the women who complained, see sense.

All credit to your DH, OP, for not taking it personally / to heart.

Part of the sexism in this is that the organiser e mailed YOU about HIS group membership. Which was both cowardly and assuming that even a SAHD cannot be allowed to manage his own group attendance.

I would go berserk if a group organiser contacted my DH about my attendance.

Dismal all round.

That was a excellent email reply op, I only wish I could write as well as you. Good luck with it all.

Good point EdgeOfTheSky I'm a bit ashamed to have missed that aspect, but yes of course, that's also grossly sexist.
Imagine the response if my son's sports coach emailed my husband to ask him to keep me away from training, nobody would miss the sexism there. But we're so accustomed to this kind of stuff. Baby matters = women's work, full stop. Even when the mother isn't directly involved. Dreadful.

If she's trying to be "right on" by saying penis, she's messed up big time. The email is in fact unequivocally transphobic - because a trans woman (if they still had a penis) who was a mother of a baby would also not be welcome among the other mothers.