Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

880 replies

Lividlavidacoco · 01/12/2021 20:12

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do Sad

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

OP posts:
Amandasummers · 02/12/2021 10:32

Wow. So that’s gay dads and lone parent dads out?! That’s disgusting. I’d be kicking off massively

Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 10:37

Brilliant response OP!

Tiredalwaystired · 02/12/2021 10:39

Outstanding response. Please let us know the reply!

Offmyfence · 02/12/2021 10:41

@bibop

I think women have the right to make their group women only.

But her wording was absolutely disgusting. No one wants to be referred to by their genitals - it's degrading.

Why is it "their" group? It's a baby music group, babies attend it with parents, not with mothers!

What right have these women to exclude other parents?

No matter how the email was worded it's still wrong!

clarkkentsglasses · 02/12/2021 10:41

Cracking response OP

StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes · 02/12/2021 10:41

@Lividlavidacoco

I’m still furious but DH’s response (and it speaks volumes about him) was to laugh and say he expects it was a knee jerk reaction and he’s not hurt, just a bit disappointed because DS will miss out.

He’s got 4 dad friends who are also stay at home parents during the week so he’s meeting them for a coffee today and he says he’ll ask if they faced similar issues. We informally call it Dad Group but maybe that should actually be a thing??

Maybe they could all go to the vagina group together? That will blow their minds! 4 penis’s
wetwiped · 02/12/2021 10:42

Excellent response OP, perfectly worded, hopefully it will make her think again.

sqirrelfriends · 02/12/2021 10:45

@LampLighter414

Yanbu but unfortunately this is what the terf and anti trans movement is doing to the world
Not really. It's not a women only space.

If it were a woman's group for rape survivors, or a breastfeeding group then it wouldn't be appropriate for any male person to be there. This group isn't for mothers, it's a space for parents with their children.

Platax · 02/12/2021 10:48

OP, if they won't rethink, I would suggest that you point out that they are discriminating against your son as much as against your DH, as he is the one who will lose out the most if they insist on this practice. And also bring out a reference to her duties under the Equality Act 2010. No child should be discriminated against because his mother works - in effect she is saying he can only come if you don't go to work (unless you can find another vagina owner to take him), which is pretty deeply anti-feminist.

Charliesgotachocolatefactory · 02/12/2021 10:51

Excellent response @Lividlavidacoco - calm and measured. Let’s see what happens next…

lifeturnsonadime · 02/12/2021 10:52

@LampLighter414

Yanbu but unfortunately this is what the terf and anti trans movement is doing to the world
Say what?

Woman have the right to have single sex spaces, it's enshrined in law.

The leader of this group has got it wrong. It's offensive to call a man a 'penis person' and to exclude a man from this group is discriminatory.

But then it's offensive to call a woman a 'body with a vagina' or a 'cervix haver' or a 'person who bleeds' but that's what TRAs want to reduce women to.

It's plain misogyny to be offended when a man is reduced to his parts but to think it perfectly acceptable that a woman should be.

AngelonTopoftheTree · 02/12/2021 10:53

discomfort at a penis were none of the babies boys? It's ridiculous, shocking and completely unacceptable! I'd put all my money on there only being one mum who said this.

FateHasRedesignedMost · 02/12/2021 11:00

It’s a rudely worded email, but I can see her point. If the group has always been women only she may fear losing all her regular customers, or putting off new joiners.

I found it odd having 1 male in a room of females eg at baby sensory or baby yoga. Obviously I said nothing, but I wondered why they wanted to go to a group that was clearly female orientated (one dad tried to join in with conversations about breastfeeding problems and birth injuries, using his poor wife as an example!) I get he wanted to be included but a lot of mum-baby groups are safe spaces where women get together and chat about things they’d not discuss in front of men.

I wouldn’t care about a man watching me breastfeed or even talking to me about it if he had a baby, but I know some women would be very uncomfortable and feel the need to cover up.

shadypines · 02/12/2021 11:03

I question whether someone who could send such an offensive message should even be running a group at all? Also there is something a bit wrong if women cannot do what their breasts are designed for Infront of men, understand that's a personal thing if they are uncomfortable but it is not fair to then exclude the men .

WrongWayApricot · 02/12/2021 11:05

5 stay at home dads in the same area, but they've never discussed attending the baby groups?

Electriq · 02/12/2021 11:12

I'm still trying to pick my jaw up from the floor!

ShirleyPhallus · 02/12/2021 11:13

I once went to a baby group and a woman took out her breast and sat with it resting on the table for about 10 minutes, while pouring her tea, having a chat, picking up muslins etc. You could see everyone was wondering if she had forgotten she had it out

Glassofshloer · 02/12/2021 11:16

@ShirleyPhallus

I once went to a baby group and a woman took out her breast and sat with it resting on the table for about 10 minutes, while pouring her tea, having a chat, picking up muslins etc. You could see everyone was wondering if she had forgotten she had it out
Yeah that is weird to be fair Hmm
MindyStClaire · 02/12/2021 11:20

@FateHasRedesignedMost

It’s a rudely worded email, but I can see her point. If the group has always been women only she may fear losing all her regular customers, or putting off new joiners.

I found it odd having 1 male in a room of females eg at baby sensory or baby yoga. Obviously I said nothing, but I wondered why they wanted to go to a group that was clearly female orientated (one dad tried to join in with conversations about breastfeeding problems and birth injuries, using his poor wife as an example!) I get he wanted to be included but a lot of mum-baby groups are safe spaces where women get together and chat about things they’d not discuss in front of men.

I wouldn’t care about a man watching me breastfeed or even talking to me about it if he had a baby, but I know some women would be very uncomfortable and feel the need to cover up.

It's baby orientated, not female orientated.

Dads may not have to deal with the physical implications of pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding but they have to deal with all of the baby stuff if they're in any way decent. DH struggled with the sleepless nights, the reflux etc almost as much as I did, and OP's DH is a SAHP who will doubtless want support for the isolation that can result just as much as a woman would. Why isolate him further?

In addition, this is a music class, not a support group. The aims are to provide a fun activity to fill a morning, stimulate the babies and promote bonding between parent and baby. Why on earth should men be excluded from that?

MLMshouldbeillegal · 02/12/2021 11:20

Fabulous response OP. Let us know what happens.

Werehamster · 02/12/2021 11:21

Great email!! Well done on standing up for yourselves. To exclude men as parents is really wrong and troubling. I hope she gives you a good and apologetic response.

Italiandreams · 02/12/2021 11:22

How will we ever normalise shared leave in order to support women in the workplace with this kind of attitude? I am all for keeping some spaces women only of course but this is not one of them. I worry that actually it trivialises the issues of women only spaces being necessary. As OP said a breastfeeding group would be completely inappropriate to go to buy a music group is different. We hear lots of complaints of men not supporting women to get back in the workplace and then hear stories like this. Well done OP, great email.

YouSetTheTone · 02/12/2021 11:23

@sqirrelfriends unfortunately some rape centres are no longer allowing women only spaces either. There was a thread on this thread other day in AIBU.

I agree it’s misogynistic for us all to be up in arms over this man being referred to as a penis when women are now routinely expected to accept being referred to as a vagina-haver/ menstruator. I hardly ever see period products aimed at women any more- it’s all about body parts.

(FWIW I do think it’s offensive to refer to him as a penis, and I fight it when women are referred to like this as well!
And ironically lots of breast feeding groups fall over themselves to make sure they’re inclusive to people with penises so if any of these women felt uncomfortable in one of those spaces they’d be called transphobic! It’s actually quite rare for a small group - or actually any sized group- to back up women who feel uncomfortable. Although I think it is misplaced in this scenario).

HW1989 · 02/12/2021 11:24

Your reply was brilliantly worded. It’s absolutely despicable that your DH would be discriminated upon like this. If there’s anyone who feels unable to breastfeed in front of him they should step out or step aside whilst feeding.

ClaudiaJ1 · 02/12/2021 11:25

@LampLighter414

Yanbu but unfortunately this is what the terf and anti trans movement is doing to the world
How dare you, @LampLighter414 Firstly, terf is a sexist misogynistic slur, secondly, No, this is what the Meninists, TRA and anti-feminist movement is doing to the world. Don't even dare think of blaming us for this, this is THE RESULT of the trans movement's doing to the world to eliminate women's rights and safe spaces.