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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

880 replies

Lividlavidacoco · 01/12/2021 20:12

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do Sad

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

OP posts:
TH22 · 02/12/2021 09:17

Cracking response! I eagerly await their reply and hope your DH gets to go back.

bibop · 02/12/2021 09:18

OP, isn't it someone's small business? Can small businesses not work with whoever they want, or is that against the law?

I'm a small business and I fire clients if I don't want to work with them, but I don't think I've ever done it on the basis of sex.

Original poster
Lividlavidacoco · 02/12/2021 09:18

I’m still furious but DH’s response (and it speaks volumes about him) was to laugh and say he expects it was a knee jerk reaction and he’s not hurt, just a bit disappointed because DS will miss out.

He’s got 4 dad friends who are also stay at home parents during the week so he’s meeting them for a coffee today and he says he’ll ask if they faced similar issues. We informally call it Dad Group but maybe that should actually be a thing??

OP posts:
LittleMysSister · 02/12/2021 09:19

Aw your poor DH, does he know about any of this yet??

I definitely would warn him not to go back there even if she does relent. She'll have told all the other mums what's gone on in order to explain why she couldn't kick him out, and they'll all be looking down their noses at him.

You'd think if she's such a small business she wouldn't want to lose one of her regular babies!

bibop · 02/12/2021 09:19

I'm not arguing that the email was despicable.

TheOrigRights · 02/12/2021 09:19

I have asked a few thousand randoms off the internet garnered opinion from a few friends

Grin
NewLevelsOfTiredness · 02/12/2021 09:20

Normalizing and encouraging men taking on their share of the nurturing role in parenting is such an important step in fighting against toxic masculinity, which is itself a major part of the deeply ingrained misogyny in society.

This was shocking enough as an isolated event, but also a sad reminder of where we are as a society as a whole.

stingofthebutterfly · 02/12/2021 09:20

I'd be tempted to tell her he doesn't have a penis. Men can have babies now, right?

But seriously, that's disgusting that she's been put in the position of having to pass on messages from offended women. Absolutely terrible.

Original poster
Lividlavidacoco · 02/12/2021 09:20

@bibop

OP, isn't it someone's small business? Can small businesses not work with whoever they want, or is that against the law?

I'm a small business and I fire clients if I don't want to work with them, but I don't think I've ever done it on the basis of sex.

It’s part of a franchise. But no, it’s not legal for her to refuse to work with DH on the basis that he is a man. Sex is a protected characteristic so legally the same as refusing to work with someone black or gay I suppose.
OP posts:
Original poster
Lividlavidacoco · 02/12/2021 09:23

@bibop

I'm not arguing that the email was despicable.
No, but you did seem to suggest that women should be allowed to unilaterally declare a space as women only and exclude others who attend regularly on that basis.
OP posts:
User5252727 · 02/12/2021 09:23

That is absolutely outrageous and totally unfair.

If a woman doesn't feel comfortable breastfeeding in front of others she has to be the one to find somewhere private. I am a breastfeeding mother and I wouldn't dream of asking a dad to leave a parent and baby group because of my hang ups.

And the way she referred to your husband was needlessly rude and hostile.

You're well within your rights to make a stink about this!

bookmarket · 02/12/2021 09:24

That's awful OP. I would be livid too. I knew loads of dads who took their kids to baby and toddler groups when my DD was a baby - almost 20 years ago. The mothers were always supportive of the dads who came along. How are we supposed to normalise dads being primary carers or taking on shared-care if there are no groups they can go to with their babies and toddlers and they are kept out of sight?

MrsToadflax · 02/12/2021 09:25

@bibop

OP, isn't it someone's small business? Can small businesses not work with whoever they want, or is that against the law?

I'm a small business and I fire clients if I don't want to work with them, but I don't think I've ever done it on the basis of sex.

It's a franchise and she has to follow the contractual agreement of that franchise. If it is supposed to be open to all, no, she can't pick and choose who she thinks is acceptable. Would it be OK for her to say no black people or no disabled people? She has discriminated on the basis of sex. Some groups are suitable to be sex specific, but a music group is not one of them.
Medievalist · 02/12/2021 09:27

Totally outrageous email.

Surely at a music group - which lasts say an hour - there won't be that much breast feeding going on anyway will there? And if there is - so what? I breast fed all of my dcs 20+ years ago and it's perfectly easy to do discretely. Why anyone would be bothered by having a male parent in the room at the same time is beyond me.

pompomsgalore · 02/12/2021 09:27

I came on here expecting to think 'bloody men trying to go a breastfeeding group again' and 'here we go again, another MNer livid over nothing' but I honestly can't believe what I'm reading. Livid would not cover it and your response was fantastic.

I cannot wait to hear her reply!

colourfulpuddles · 02/12/2021 09:28

I’m interested in hearing her reply.

sqirrelfriends · 02/12/2021 09:31

I'm honestly shocked by her email. I don't think I've ever been to a group that didn't have at least one dad at some point. IMO, as long as it's not something specifically for mums then Dads should have an equal right to be there.

There are increasing numbers of men raising children, prohibiting them from normal parental life is discriminatory. SAHD, gay dads, single dads and dads giving mum a break are all worthy of support that baby classes can provide. This should be encouraged and normalised.

I say this as someone who breastfed at groups without issue.

Somebodylikeyew · 02/12/2021 09:32

EXCELLENT email, OP.
I await her reply with interest.

itsjustnotok · 02/12/2021 09:33

@ bibop this dad has decided to become a SAHD, he's not trying to attend a breastfeeding group - which understandably is targeted at those breastfeeding. We regularly hear about how women are discriminated against and are almost always primary caregivers for children, we express our disappointment that men don't do enough and it all falls to mum to sort out. Yet we have a dad wanting to, it should be encouraged. For true equality we need to accept that a dad can look after his children just as well as mum can. It's not ok to discriminate over a music lesson which did not stipulate men weren't allowes. It's unacceptable and it does nothing to encourage men to be comfortable to step up and take responsibility and enjoy doing it.

bibop · 02/12/2021 09:33

@Lividlavidacoco - OK, fair enough.

Snuggledupforwinter · 02/12/2021 09:36

Outrageous and discriminatory! My DH (primary carer) took our DC to playgroups but was made to feel unwelcome so my DM ended up taking them instead. So sad that the world has not moved on in 15 years!!

rrhuth · 02/12/2021 09:39

@Lividlavidacoco

I’m still furious but DH’s response (and it speaks volumes about him) was to laugh and say he expects it was a knee jerk reaction and he’s not hurt, just a bit disappointed because DS will miss out.

He’s got 4 dad friends who are also stay at home parents during the week so he’s meeting them for a coffee today and he says he’ll ask if they faced similar issues. We informally call it Dad Group but maybe that should actually be a thing??

It happened to my DH but that was a fair time ago, I am disappointed it is still happening now.
jamie85 · 02/12/2021 09:39

As a former house spouse and father I am amazed that this still happens.
I would not want to be anywhere near a mother nursing. I would move myself to other end of the room and talk to someone else or play with my own child.
Such modesty contrasts with mothers we have all seen flopping a swollen boob out sweaters for their baby in cafes.
Using such language to describe a straight 'typical' male parent is offensive because it could have been worded far less confrontationally.
Are the babies too young to benefit from being socialised among male role models?

SpookyScarySkeletons · 02/12/2021 09:43

@itsjustnotok

@ bibop this dad has decided to become a SAHD, he's not trying to attend a breastfeeding group - which understandably is targeted at those breastfeeding. We regularly hear about how women are discriminated against and are almost always primary caregivers for children, we express our disappointment that men don't do enough and it all falls to mum to sort out. Yet we have a dad wanting to, it should be encouraged. For true equality we need to accept that a dad can look after his children just as well as mum can. It's not ok to discriminate over a music lesson which did not stipulate men weren't allowes. It's unacceptable and it does nothing to encourage men to be comfortable to step up and take responsibility and enjoy doing it.
Well said!!!

When our youngest was a baby DH used to take her to baby swimming classes. I worked full time working on my career and he worked shifts so it always fell on him to take her.

The first time he went the group instructor asked where his wife was... he was the only dad there. However nobody complained and he was befriended by the other mums in the class. He would have been mortified if he had experienced a reaction like your group leader!!

I find it really sad that this attitude is still around!!

Highlanders372 · 02/12/2021 09:53

Excellent response, very interested to see the reply you get!