To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

That’s a remarkable email for a ‘small business’ to send. Wowsers. No you are not being unreasonable. FFS surely this perpetuates the whole issues we have societally around breastfeeding? It’s unbelievable. It’s a horrible email, a discriminatory approach and smacks of some bitchy mum not wanting her precious mummy bubble bursting. Call them lead and have a very frank discussion about this. Unbelievable and really sorry for your DH.

This has made me so angry. My friend lost his wife nine days after the birth of their son. If he decided to reach out socially and was excluded because of this it would crush him further. This is disgusting.

As a breastfeeding mother I didn’t consider my breasts to be a predominantly sexual for that period of my life. Surely we want breastfeeding to be normalised in public? This makes things worse!

This is sex discrimination. I've run baby rhyme time groups and dads were always welcome. As were grandparents. It was a breast feeding friendly space, and there were never any issues with dads being there. Referring to someone as a penis is just insane.

Utterly appalling.

It is a great thing to have dad's at groups. There were a few when my children were young.

We want breastfeeding to be normalised in public.

Breastfeeding in public is normal. So is being a man. There shouldn't be a problem at all.

This is particularly bad, but my SAHD husband was often excluded from groups or not invited to get togethers for children. Unless we change attitudes that it is at least as normal for dad to be attending these groups as well as mum, we will stifle our path to true equality.

Ffs, she actually called your h a penis? That is bonkers.

It's no surprise that men feel outsiders in mums/baby groups. Have to say the penis comment is particularly offensive and I'm not usually easily offended. How can we expect men to take an equal role in child rearing when these attitudes exist.

I would be livid and raging, that's so incredibly rude!

When I was breastfeeding I often had to feed in places where there were men around. If I only wanted to feed around women I wouldn't have left the house much.

I'd understand in a feeding group as you often need to be quite exposed so they can check the latch etc but don't think feeding in a music group is much different to feeding in a cafe, in the park etc etc.

You are not unreasonable on both points. I’d be outraged. We complain that the majority of childcare is done by women, and then when a man steps forward we freeze him out. This email is incredibly unfair, to both your husband, and your baby.

@Draggondragon

It depends if there are Muslim women there they may not be allowed to be in a room with a man depending on their husband's instructions. I read between the lines that he might be one of those mega dads and is spoiling the group with his performance parenting because I can't really believe that being male is the issue. Maybe he's just really annoying

If this is the case, then they should find another class. Their husbands' wishes don't come before the group leader's right to run an open class, open to anyone.

sounds like they have an issue with your DH rather than men in general. He's obviously made other mums feel uncomfortable in some way, enough for them to complain.

This is a bit of a leap! And if her DH had done something to make the others feel uncomfortable that should have been explicitly referenced in the email as it's hugely relevant. But instead she simply states (unprofessionally and offensively) that they are uncomfortable with his genitals being present. 🙄

I presume some of the babies in the group have penises too!

I would say my DH is perfectly happy attending the PARENT and baby group despite the sea of vaginas he has to encounter and that is there is an uncomfortable vagina then you suggest she should look for a vagina only group in future.

She might be a 'very well thought of' member of the community but she's very unprofessional. That's for sure.

WTF475878237NC

^ not necessarily. I couldn't feed in public due to my religious beliefs about exposing my body in front of men“

In which case you have to adapt what you do accordingly. Completely unreasonable to expect anyone else to be excluded from a parenting group because of your personal beliefs.

Zippy

So I’ve replied (thanks for the help)

Hi Leader,

MrLivid and I find your email deeply troubling. In a time when we all strive for equality, it is very concerning that you would feel it’s appropriate to exclude DH on the basis of his sex. DH is a stay at home parent and has given up his career in order to enable mine. In order to normalise this, we must see men as care givers, fathers and equal parents and never simply as ‘penises’ in the same way that we would never teach our children that ‘vaginas’ should stay at home as breeders and not be earners, breadwinners or career climbers.

I understand the reference to yourself as a small business and your fear that you will lose clients by allowing DH to attend groups. I would suggest though that here, a question of right and wrong has arisen and you have chosen to side with wrong in order to avoid rocking a very outdated boat. I have garnered opinion from a few friends and trusted members of local mums groups and every single one has expressed their disappointment that in 2021, we are still struggling to see men as parents without them being accused of being some kind of predator. You went one step further and chose to refer to DH by his genitals which is deeply offensive on many levels. My suggestion here is that by feeling justified in treating a fellow parent in this way, you are risking more business than you think.

Indeed, if on receipt of your reply you still feel it’s justified to exclude DH (in direct contradiction to FRANCHISE NAME’s values of inclusivity to all parents and carers) I’ll be forwarding this email chain directly to FRANCHISE NAME as a formal complaint.

After speaking to DH, although he is very hurt by the accusation that he poses a threat to breastfeeding mothers, he would like to continue to attend the group because DS enjoys it and it is the only group in the area open to male parents.

Please take time to reconsider your position and I await your response.

Regards,

Livid.

@Oldtiredfedup

I’m a staunch sex-based rights and spaces supporter, but this is madness and discriminatory. Babies are not the sole domain of women and this is not a birth support or breastfeeding support groups.

As for referring to his genitals - this is where ‘gender’ has got us: I’d put my last pound on thd group being perfectly happy to accept men who sag they are women.

@Oldtiredfedup I couldn't agree more with every word of your post

👏🏻 A masterful reply and I do hope it changes her position and she vocally supports your DH being there

Great reply op. I really hope it makes her think and reconsider her position.

Excellent response, OP and I hope this makes the person who wrote to you so offensively think again. If not I hope you follow through with complaining to the franchise. 🌹

Yea gods I’m apoplectic for you. And as for for referring to him as a penis, where do I start, how Fucking offensive can you get. And if she dared, dared to even suggest that she was doing it to be inclusive, then she’d be explaining to me exactly why she assumes he has a penis in the first place.

I found similar when my DH was off. It's sad and surely makes lonelier for men who do take leave.