To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

[quote ShinyHappyPoster]@FabricedeSauveterre why on earth would you leap to that straw man? Oh, wait, I think I've answered my own question. How hilarious that you think telling men they can't attend a single sex group now means women can't go to work. That's the sort of bullshit abusers pull - if you try to have any boundaries lots of bad stuff will happen. No, it won't.

I've attended lots of baby groups over the years. Some were mixed sex and some weren't. All parents of both sexes managed to keep their jobs and attend groups. None of the juggling is new.
What is new is the encroachment on single sex spaces and women falling over themselves to validate a man's hurt feelings rather than looking at group demographics and acting accordingly.[/quote]
It’s not a single sex space. It’s a baby music class. I don’t find the encroachment of single sex spaces hilarious at all but I also find sex discrimination very unfunny. If discriminatory assumptions are made that it’s only women who should attend a baby music group because they might breastfeed whilst there (substitute for any activity where babies might be) then women are going to feel guilty for being at work and men are not going to want to look after those babies where they are not welcome in any baby activity classes and we’re all stuck in back in traditional gender roles where we should know our place. There has to be a non discriminatory justification for a single sex space: toilets, breastfeeding classes, support groups for women, absolutely. Shaking a tambourine whilst bouncing a 4 month old on your knee, no. It’s not ok for a class to be single sex by default attendance, if there’s a reason a baby music group is for women only it ought to be advertised as such, and justified in line with equality legislation. That’s appropriate boundary setting within the law.

@WrongWayApricot

Are all three groups run by the same business? In that the women attending might have assumed it was women only always? And, 3 weeks ago did you tell her your partner was going to be bringing DS or your husband was going to be bringing DS?

It's 2021, women might meet a man occasionally at baby groups. If they assumed that then they should have just accepted it when a dad showed up at the music class.

And if it's the same women at all 3 groups then they are complete assholes to kick up a fuss about a dad attending the one group that doesn't imply women only, and then expect the baby to miss out on the activity with their parent also! So incredibly selfish, entitled and precious.

Also if she said partner then how bizarre to just assume that the partner was a woman unless otherwise stated. Heterosexual is still very much the norm.

"When she said partner I assumed she must have meant a vagina, I was so shocked when it was actually a penis that showed up at baby music class"

No...can't see that happening!

So how do these ‘mummies’ feed their babies the rest of the time? Because if they are only comfortable breastfeeding when there isn’t a penis in the room then there are going to be some very hungry babies.

I’ve taken my DC to numerous baby groups over the years and there have always been dads there. I even went to an actual breastfeeding support group once and a dad had come to support the mum and until now I hadn’t even registered that it was something that someone would have objected to.

So weird and I’d definitely complain. Is it rhythm time? If so I’ve been to a few run by different franchisees and there have always been men there, more so than any other group.

I bet some of the mothers attend the baby swimming class, if he goes to that then I bet they'll regret getting him kicked out of the baby music class!

Are all of the babies female? By excluding male role models from the music group are we giving the messages: childcare is for women only, music is not something boys/men do? Are we comfortable with our children being raised with those constructs?
How might a little boy feel, liking music but not seeing anyone there who is like him?

In the early years profession we have to be so careful about not portraying stereotypes, seems strange that a group aimed at our youngest children be allowed to forge them.

IHateCoronavirus

Totally agree. It's pathetic, and ridiculous that the group leader didn't immediately rebut the suggestion that it was unacceptable for a dad to attend.

Group of cliquey mums and a not-very-intelligent group leader. I can absolutely see how this happened.

All very well saying “it’s the group leader’s business, what else can she do?” But what if the complaint had been on the basis of skin colour? Disability? Sexual orientation?

I bet she would have been horrified.

I wouldn’t give her the opportunity to dial it back - the damage is done. I would at the very least put the wind up her by telling her you’re taking legal advice on the discrimination.

Screenshot any marketing stuff that makes it clear it is not a single sex group.

@user1481840227 well, as long as you can't see it happening, it must not have happened.

Personally, the only way I can believe this email is real is either:

1. the parent company is something like 'women only TM'
2. the leader assumed OPs DH was actually a woman when they discussed OP going back to work. Maybe because of reason 1, she assumed OP wouldn't be silly enough to send a husband to 'women only TM' music class?

Why on earth would any of the rest happened. As everyone else has said music groups are never usually mums only. None of this makes sense. It also sounds weird to me that there are only 3 baby groups in the area, or 4 if you count the swimming group found today. And all the mums all seem to go to the same 3 groups. Nobody said, why don't you come along to swimming OP, why do you only come to these 3? Who would refer to the husband only as penis in a first email about an issue. Surely leader would have said, uncomfortable with a dad/male in the room.

Sure Dad's going to turn up in his budgie smugglers next week and a breastfeeding mum will faint, next email Dear OP the penis is more visible please become a SAHM ASAP 🙄

OP has managed to cram in so much controversy into one tiny village babies music group. Breastfeeding, reversed stereotypical gender roles, single sex/shared sex spaces, referring to someone by their genitals. They must be the talk of the isolated back end of beyond town. It's got to be some sort of misunderstanding or utter claptrap imo.

I would suggest that he takes your baby to the swimming class instead and send a really strongly worded letter to the person who runs the music class about how offensive you found her letter. I get she may feel she is stuck between a rock and a hard place but there is no excuse for how poorly she handled it.

[quote Almostmenopausal]@ClaudiaJ1 Don't you DARE use Sarah Everard to excuse this appalling and hurtful behaviour. Don't you bloody dare. [/quote]
I didn't. I was referring to this Sarah. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10249633/Rape-victim-forced-quit-therapy-sessions-feels-threatened-6ft-trans-woman.html

That was to @Almostmenopausal .

I wonder how some women even get pregnant if the sight of a man is so distressing and gives them a bout of the vapors.

Imagine the outcry if a “parent and child” football club, mostly attended by dads and children, referred to a mother who decided to come along for her child as “a vagina” or “a pair of titties” by the fathers.

@WomblingKnobhead

What do you feel about the breastfeeding women who feel vulnerable whilst feeding? I think the use of the term penis is shocking and unnecessary

It is only since i moved here that making your choice to feed your baby in a particular way can cause someone to feel vulnerable.

Breasts are so over sexualised in the UK - i literally cant get around people’s discomfort about making use of their breasts in a totally natural way.

Do bottle feeding mums feel vulnerable?

I don’t understand it at all.

@WrongWayApricot

Did you see the other day that a university banned the use of the term 'trigger warning' because it might be triggering
Sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction.

It's definitely not beyond the realms of possibility that some entitled women complained about a man being there.

The only thing that sounds a bit wacky is the use of the word 'penis' but it could certainly have happened...as I said the truth can be stranger than fiction!

This is not OK. There were dads at the infant feeding clinic in the hospital that I went to with DD when I was struggling with breastfeeding - they were there to support their partners with breastfeeding. I thought it could be weird but they were all completely focused on their babies and partners and the nurses that ran the sessions were amazing (and no doubt would kick anyone out who wasn't there for good reason because they meant business!). It was at the hospital so was a more formal environment and it did feel safe. There are dads and grandparents at 2 of the 3 baby and toddler groups we now go to and these groups are better for them. A drop in community breastfeeding group probably should just be for breastfeeding women as it's more informal. Anything else should be about the baby!

I feel myself getting angry at posts like this. Your husband should be welcomed at groups like these, he sounds like a great dad and there should be opportunities for him to take part in groups like these too.

I live in Germany and it's so different here. My husband had three months of paternity leave in summer and went to two playgroups and a tumble tots with our son and no one batted an eyelid.
Two other dads bring their children to one of the playgroups sometimes and it just doesn't (and shouldn't) make a difference.
I'm still breastfeeding and my son is 16 months. Wouldn't bother me to feed in front of dads

It depends if there are Muslim women there they may not be allowed to be in a room with a man depending on their husband's instructions. I read between the lines that he might be one of those mega dads and is spoiling the group with his performance parenting because I can't really believe that being male is the issue. Maybe he's just really annoying

That is so disgusting

@ClaudiaJ1

Women aren't the only ones. "Dick," "prick," "cock," "wanker." They're all slang, and we use them regularly. To be fair. However, I have rarely (this is the first time, actually), heard of anyone being called by the actual name of the organ...a penis. And I reiterate, everyone would have been screaming had a husband gotten an email about men in a group being uncomfortabe about a "vagina" being there.

It's the difference between slangy slurs, which both sexes use, and the medical term, which seems to say a man (or woman) is nothing more than a penis (or vagina).

If they can’t have a penis in the room I assume all the baby boys will be asked to leave too?

She shouldn't have referred to your husband as a penis. However, if their material all says parent, the leader had no issue when you said your DH was going, now suddenly after he's been they don't want him back, sounds like they have an issue with your DH rather than men in general. He's obviously made other mums feel uncomfortable in some way, enough for them to complain. I've been to loads of these groups with dad's there and no-one usually cares tbh.

This is terrible.

1. How do we normalise breast feeding if we insist that it is a clandestine activity only to be conducted behind closed doors?
2. How do we normalise fathers being the primary carers for their children, and women being able to return to work if we insist on ‘othering’ SAHDs?

So depressing that a group of women are buying into the idea that only women should take on the child care role, and that breastfeeding is somehow something to be hidden away.

She actually wrote penis... WTAF

Definitely challenge it

YANBU!!! Bloody cheek!

So many times I see on here women should not give up their career, why do men get to keep theirs.

Now maybe we can see some of the challenges with this?