To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

it's an unfair situation, but sometimes adverse events bring new opportunities.

Are there any Dad and Baby music or other baby activity groups?

Maybe your DH could start one as he's unlikely to be the only Dad in that position in a small town.

That's horrible! Your poor DH. It's no wonder men don’t feel like they can be involved in baby stuff if that's the way they are treated.

I'd definitely send an email back. If the other mums are so concerned about BF, I'm sure your DH would be happy to avert his eyes.

I would deliberately misinterpret her email in my response, so something like "You're banning my son from the class because he has a penis? Is it just my son or all of the children with a penis? That just beggars belief!"

@WomblingKnobhead

What do you feel about the breastfeeding women who feel vulnerable whilst feeding? I think the use of the term penis is shocking and unnecessary

I agree with this. There are two issues here: one is that extraordinarily offensive email; the second is that your husband thought it was ok to crash into a breastfeeding group. Breast feeding is a private function,.There are lots of complaints at MN that women's spaces are being invaded by men.Why is it all right here? He can attend the music group and I'm sure the coffee group would not object to being renamed parent and coffee group.

So hang on, these women are uncomfortable breastfeeding in front of a male at a music group but will rant & rave about their right to breastfeed in public - where there are multiple males present? 🤔

@SammyScrounge ?? This IS the music group he's going to.

@ClaudiaJ1 Don't you DARE use Sarah Everard to excuse this appalling and hurtful behaviour. Don't you bloody dare.

I think YABU and I can't understand why you're having to pussyfoot around your DH's feelings about this. Whether by default or by statement, this has been a single sex group. Your DH's presence is making people feel uncomfortable.
Can you complain and salt the earth? Sure. If that makes all the women leave, will you feel that has achieved something positive for your DH, your DC, the other DC or the community?

@Lividlavidacoco

I’ve just discovered there’s a baby swimming group not too far away - I think I’ll suggest DH takes DS to that. You’re right and he’s not going to want to go back to this group which is such a massive shame.

No no no! OP PLEASE don't just give in like this! Stand up for your husband and against this appalling discrimination!!!!

I strongly suspect that the reference to objections to "a penis in the room" is because definitions of man/woman have become so jumbled recently with the gender woo nonsense. In the current climate, saying "man" could mean a transman with a vagina, and saying"woman" may indicate acceptance of a trans woman with a penis. I think the phraseology is awkward - but it's reflective of the absolute bollocks we're currently living through. It's no different than recent references to "menstruators" and "bodies with a uterus" (both real examples). All of them are horrible, clumsy but increasingly common because of the craziness over gender identity.

I'm also another one who thinks that one of the reasons the women are probably pushing back hard is because of Stonewall. Women are fighting to be able to claim single sex spaces and I think this is the fallout from that. It's not fair or reasonable, but it's totally understandable given the erasure that women are facing.

Breastfeeding groups etc, totally reasonable to be a single sex space. But of course your DH should be able to attend groups like this. It must be really daunting as a bloke to arrive at a group where you know you're likely to be met with some suspicion, so fair play to him for really embracing the SAHD role. You sound brilliantly supportive OP - I think the baby swimming is a good idea. Given what's happened here, I might be inclined to message the baby swimming in advance so you have written confirmation from them that dads are welcome too. Might help your DH if he has a wobble in confidence after this.

I don't think you'll get anywhere with the group leader but a calm, factual response pointing out the legal position would be a good move.

I don’t believe this for one second. I think someone is having a joke at the OPs expense.

I agree with this. There are two issues here: one is that extraordinarily offensive email; the second is that your husband thought it was ok to crash into a breastfeeding group

He wasn’t at a breastfeeding group. He was at a parent and child class (music, in this case) where some women happened to be breastfeeding.

YANBU as it is a music group, not a breastfeeding group.
The "other mummies" need to wind their necks in on this one, and so does the group leader.

Playgroups, library groups, activity groups (gymbabes, swimming, dancing etc.) and music groups are all (or at least SHOULD all be) absolutely inclusive of either parent/carer, regardless of sex.

I'm also cross on your behalf. It's so bloody regressive to assume that all childcare duties fall on the female parent!! It's not even like she gave you any leeway or choice! And I assume your DH isn't attempting to be "one of the girls" and join in on BF'ing talk etc (which there shouldn't BE much of in a music group anyway!), so the others really DO need to stop being utter sexist twats about it.
If, otoh, your DH IS trying to be "one of the girls" then he needs to stop that. That's not appropriate.

@Cordyceps I'll be honest, in the last hour I've been thinking that too, that it's a TRA poster. I want to be wrong, but I smell a rat.

Nah. TRAs are generally not that nuanced.

This is the problem with self Id. If she’d said man you could potentially say your partner self identified as a woman.

However the email is very rude and there is still no excuse for the terminology used. No doubt about it.
And I don’t see how a music group is different to playgroup etc where dads are/should be welcome. Presumably these women breastfeed in public. Either cover up or leave the room if uncomfortable just as you would do in a cafe/soft play etc.
I don’t think dads should be barred from engaging with their children in a group setting for this reason it’s not fair.
Are we going to say men can’t go into Starbucks too?

Maybe she's politely telling you they all think your DH is a dick or a cock.

"the mummies don't want a penis in the room"

You're dick.

Message back and say "Why do they think my DH is a dick? He's a really nice guy"

Just to see what she says.

@ShinyHappyPoster

I think YABU and I can't understand why you're having to pussyfoot around your DH's feelings about this. Whether by default or by statement, this has been a single sex group. Your DH's presence is making people feel uncomfortable. Can you complain and salt the earth? Sure. If that makes all the women leave, will you feel that has achieved something positive for your DH, your DC, the other DC or the community?

Maybe OP should give up her job and she be the stay at parent then? Clearly her job is being at baby music classes not in the workplace, Can you see how damaging this actually is for women who don’t want to be default parent?

Sure he didn't go to the breastfeeding group by accident? 😂 That's the only rational explanation for the email.

Are all three groups run by the same business? In that the women attending might have assumed it was women only always? And, 3 weeks ago did you tell her your partner was going to be bringing DS or your husband was going to be bringing DS?

The world has gone mad hasn't it! I used to attend baby and parent groups with my dd pre-covid and there were a mixture of both mums and dads. Mostly mums but there were dad's too. Since covid everything seems to have gone downhill. Definitely complain, its discriminatory and referring to your dh by his genitals is extremely rude.

I have attended lots of baby groups over the years and they have all at some time had men there and it's never been an issue.

Groups that relate to females only (mum and bub or breastfeeding support group etc) of course should be kept to women only but he should be able to attend the other groups and the group should/could if needed offer a separate area for women to feed their bubs if they are uncomfortable.

Dad's are parents too.

Wow. Could you imagine if some men were messaging about a woman and referred to her as a vagina!

@FabricedeSauveterre why on earth would you leap to that straw man? Oh, wait, I think I've answered my own question. How hilarious that you think telling men they can't attend a single sex group now means women can't go to work. That's the sort of bullshit abusers pull - if you try to have any boundaries lots of bad stuff will happen. No, it won't.

I've attended lots of baby groups over the years. Some were mixed sex and some weren't. All parents of both sexes managed to keep their jobs and attend groups. None of the juggling is new.
What is new is the encroachment on single sex spaces and women falling over themselves to validate a man's hurt feelings rather than looking at group demographics and acting accordingly.

@WomblingKnobhead

What do you feel about the breastfeeding women who feel vulnerable whilst feeding? I think the use of the term penis is shocking and unnecessary

This is a tricky question, because it's important to support and validate women who feel vulnerable or anxious, however I'm not actually sure that excluding other people would truly be supportive. I'd argue that if a woman feels so vulnerable that she doesn't feel comfortable breastfeeding in a baby class (attended by other parents, whose focus will naturally be on their own child and not anyone else and who would naturally support the need to breastfeed more than a stranger in public would) that will also translate into reluctance to feed anywhere else and she would be better off seeking help and support for how she feels rather than excluding other people from groups... what would she do if baby became hungry in a park/cafe/shop etc?

I've attended breastfeeding clinics and baby sensory classes with men present and think it was wonderful that they were there to support or take part. I can see the argument for female only breastfeeding clinics (particularly as it's related to health and there's no choice about needing to attend), but for baby activity groups... why shouldn't a man be given the opportunity to take part as equally as the mother?

Yuk, what an email. I feel for you in that there are limited options, however if this is a group you pay for I would stop attending now. Dreadful, offensive and discriminating.