To be absolutely LIVID about this email?

[Lividlavidacoco]

‘Hi Livid,

I hope you’re well and your return to work went smoothly? Just to let you know, a few of the mums messaged me after Monday’s session to express discomfort at having a penis in the group environment. They expressed they felt uncomfortable breastfeeding with him in the room and we want the group to always be a safe and inclusive space for breastfeeding mummies. I am a small business so think it’s best that he doesn’t attend again. Sorry for the inconvenience, I’ll refund any sessions you have pre-paid.’

WTAFFFFFF.

Context: I returned to work 2 weeks ago, DH is now a full time stay at home dad to our 8 month old son and he’s loving it. He’s a brilliant father and this will be the set up until DS starts school.

I attended a baby music group with DS since he was 2 months old and he really enjoys it (as much as a little baby enjoys anything!) with other mums. No where in the literature of the group does it refer to mums, everything is ‘baby and parent’ so I assumed him attending the group instead of me would be fine. I told the group leader 3 weeks ago that DH would be bringing DS from now on and she was totally fine about it.

There are only 3 groups for babies in our small town and I attended all of them: a breastfeeding group, a ‘mums and babies’ coffee morning and then the baby music group. Obviously DH can’t attend breastfeeding or the coffee morning so this was the only one he could do

WIBU to fire back an email asking firstly why she feels the need to refer to my husband by his genitals and secondly, where in the group descriptions anywhere Eddie’s it says it’s a mums only group??

AIBU here???

Maybe she meant his behaviour, not his genitals. You might want to contact another mum, find out what happened.

No scratch that. It would still be bizarre and rude.

@GrumpyLivesInMyHouseNow

I'd want to post this all over Facebook and tag the group in. I know it would probably make it worse but this is awful.

How did people manage their problems before social media? I think this is terrible advice. However, I do think the group leader should be taken to task, and word of mouth would have some effect as social media, but would be more dignified.

I'm a huge supporter of single-sex spaces for women, for places where women are vulnerable, undressed, or discussing personal matters. But a baby group is not any of those (unless it's specifically a breastfeeding group, or one for women with childbirth injuries, or post natal issues perhaps).

This.

A music class or babies is not a single sex space or provision. If women were out in a cafe/restaurant, would they be entitled to ask the 'penises' to vacate before starting to breastfeed?

@HorsdoeuvresInTheGarage

I hope all those outraged by the penis reference, are equally outraged by women being reduced to body parts or functions, which happens a lot these days. Somehow I doubt it. It's basically what JKR was pilloried for pointing out.

I’m equally outraged. I see nothing wrong with what JKRowling said.

Oh, FGS.

How on earth are we supposed to promote equality in parenting and challenge stereotypes about ‘women’s work’ if men undertaking normal parenting activities get this sort of crap?

I dunno. Something about it feels bollocks. Breastfeeding mums feed in all sorts of places, I can’t think of any single sex place I fed in.

The Daily Mail won’t allow women to be photographed for their shit rag whilst wearing trousers. They insist you change into a skirt or dress.

Anyone else got a little story to share in case the DM does want to print it, and direct their readers here?“

I’m probably being really dense but I don’t understand your post at all. Sorry.

As a father myself who actively took my children to parent/baby/toddler groups as a primary carer, I was always keenly aware and mindful of the discomfort my mere presence could potentially cause mothers in a traditionally female dominated space.

I am also generally not one to stick my nose, or penis as it were, where it is not wanted. That said, in a situation such as this, I might actually go back to the group as a matter of self respect standing up to bullies. I would absolutely still keep the same mindfulness and respectful engagement with the group activities. No confrontation or anything, just the self respect of standing up for myself and not being bullied away.

I hope all those outraged by the penis reference, are equally outraged by women being reduced to body parts or functions, which happens a lot these days. Somehow I doubt it

Don’t be so patronising!

@HorsdoeuvresInTheGarage

I hope all those outraged by the penis reference, are equally outraged by women being reduced to body parts or functions, which happens a lot these days. Somehow I doubt it. It's basically what JKR was pilloried for pointing out.

I certainly am. I have seen many, many references to women being referred to by their body parts, this is the first time I've seen men being treated the same.

That's ridiculous. I've got 5 dc and have been to loads of baby groups. Most of them had at least 1 dad there. Some of the groups had more than one, others had a grandparent or two. It was never even commented on, never mind complained about. Although I always used to smile at the grandad who would always fall asleep on the sofa during a group while his wife kept nudging him awake .

Are none of the babies male? Are there not many penises in the room?

Disgusting for them to refer to him in that way, and disgusting for them to try to exclude him from a music group. Discrimination.

WTAF? I can't believe they thought that email was acceptable. I'm gobsmacked at the part where they refer to him by his genitals.

As for the reason being mums feeling uncomfortable - well I used to run a breastfeeding group and we always welcomed dads, no one ever batted an eyelid. Definitely sack that group off.

If this is real, then it is outrageous and discriminatory and just downright wrong! I am assuming of course, that your DH behaved appropriately.

I have to confess I am finding it quite hard to believe though. "A penis in the room"? Really?? What about the baby boys' penises???

Incidentally, it is also not really on to have "mums' and babies" groups these days either.

This is awful. I'd definitely go back to her and also raise with head office. Not sure I'd tell DH will it make him wary of any kinds of parenting groups in future?

Are baby sized penises allowed?

"It is disappointing that you have taken this decision to discriminate against my husband on the basis of his sex. It seems a fairly regressive decision given the role that shared parental leave can play in pursuing equality for women and mothers. I fully understand and champion women's need for female only groups, like the local breastfeeding one or even the Mother & Baby group where there is either a reasonable expectation of privacy, or provision of peer support/community. However, I wasn't aware that banning men from your group would be considered a proportionate means for achieving the entertainment of babies, but perhaps I have misunderstood your aim?

I would appreciate confirmation that this is now your policy and is supported by the franchise operator?"

Or just:

"I think you have made a rash decision here in an attempt to resolve the complaints you received. However, I would strongly encourage you to take more time to evaluate whether excluding my husband from a baby music group due to his sex is the right approach."

You are not being unreasonable at all! As you've said, it's parent and baby, not mum and baby.

I hope your husband is OK too as I can imagine how they've made him feel, especially being referred to as 'a penis'!
Definitely fire off that email.

“Having a penis in the room”

Are all the babies female, or whatever the acceptable term is this week? Surely male babies are similarly endowed.

Depending on whether you would prefer that your DH might be able to return to the group without too much awkwardness or you just want to hold her to account!

I think a mix of @Charliesgotachocolatefactory and @imonlyhooman's replies would be perfect. I'd definitely make out that I'd thought she was saying only mums and female babies were allowed, as well as referring her to the Equality Act. And if she doesn't back down then contact head office.

And if you haven't told him already, I'd probably hold back from telling DH for now as you don't want to knock his confidence.

I am assuming of course, that your DH behaved appropriately

@irregularegular WTF is that supposed to mean? That he didn't whop his "penis" out and wave it around during Baby Music?

Would you say the same of a woman? ("There were lots of dads there, and there was a mum there too, and I assume she behaved appropriately"?)

No wonder MN is so full of threads about useless dads, if women categorise them by their genitals and even entertain the possibility of them not "behaving appropriately" at a parent and baby group.

FFS.

PENISSSS though 😩😩 some of those mums need to get a grip. I had to boob feed on the bus yesterday. I didn’t then complain to TFL to make sure no men are on my next bus