Aibu to be horrified at the thought of mandatory vaccinations

[TracyLords]

I’m not anti vax. I’ve had my jabs and will get booster this week.

There have been countries in the EU insisting on mandatory vaccination: this concerns me: surely it is up to the individual to decide to get vaccinated (or otherwise)

YANBU.
I've willingly had both jabs (with some initial hesitation about the astra zeneca version - I was offered Pfizer by my gp surgery as they had spare doses one week so I didn't have to choose in the end) but the thought of mandating it terrifies me.

It's nit the same as seat belts and Mots. They're purely there for people's safety. There's no risk from having an mot. We know there are risks from the vaccines - that's why some age groups are offered certain ones over others. I'm not at all comfortable with forcing people to accept one risk over another.

I'm also terrified of the slippery slope effect. What about forced induction of labour? What about forced organ donation?

The whole thing is rubbish but vaccination is the way out so I can’t say I’m aghast at the idea of it being mandatory.

You’re not aghast at the idea of putting people in prison for not getting vaccinated? How do you think it will be enforced?

YANBU. Mandatory vaccinations are an abomination and anyone advocating for them should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves!

Vaccinations should absolutely be compulsary, including for children. Being vaccinated is as much about protecting others as protecting the individual. It's,up to all of us to protect the most vulnerable members of society. If you choose not to be vaccinated, then you should forfeit your right to enjoy the benefits of the nhs

The vast majority of hospital beds are taken up by idiots who refused to be vaccinated. Restrictions on travel is a given in many countries now for the unvaxxed. I would extend this to access to school places, like some European countries make having the mmr a condition of getting a school place!

If you choose not to be vaccinated, then you should forfeit your right to enjoy the benefits of the nhs

So you’re expecting doctors to check the vaccination status of patients and then boot them out to die if they’re unvaccinated?

@YungWaffle,

'I'm not sure what you consider devastating either. This is not a particularly virulent disease. The vast majority of people, even unvaccinated, will be fine.'

This statement is dangerous nonsense. It is the most virulent disease, by a factor of about 5, that Europeans and North Americans have dealt with for about 100 years (and maybe more, as it is probably more virulent than Spanish Flu).

The CFR , in an unvaccinated population.at population level, with good medical treatment, is almost universally estimated at over 1% (and that was from alpha). If the NHS were overwhelmed, it would be way higher than that.

If you talk to anyone with medical knowledge, they will confirm that COVID (whilst not Ebola) is, at population level, a very virulent disease indeed.

@PurpleDaisies

The whole thing is rubbish but vaccination is the way out so I can’t say I’m aghast at the idea of it being mandatory.

You’re not aghast at the idea of putting people in prison for not getting vaccinated? How do you think it will be enforced?

Slippery slope argument. At this point vaccines are not even mandatory in most countries. In the few where it is the consequences would be a fine and not prison. I have yet to see someone even suggest prison for those who are unvaccinated.

And if the fine isn’t paid @CaptSkippy?

@TheReluctantPhoenix
I was speaking in terms of its effect on the host, rather than population (literally the meaning of virulence). I did some basic analysis on the early stats and something like 90% of deaths were of over 60s.
So that's ~90% of your 1% that would be at risk with pretty much any respiratory disease.
That's not to say that it's not worth making efforts to stave of deaths at all, but the vast majority of people who catch covid (if they catch it) are not going to die.
My point is that this probably not the virus to mandate invasive medical procedures for if there ever is one.
I can't verify the rest of your claims (such as the "factor of 5") but I don't think they change anything either.

@PurpleDaisies,

The last thing anyone wants is to put people in jail who are at high risk of spreading COVID. It can spread like fire in a prison population.

If people don't pay their fine, it can be passed to the bailiffs to confiscate goods to the value of the fine.

@PurpleDaisies

And if the fine isn’t paid *@CaptSkippy*?

You tell me, but that doesn't change the fact that's still a slippery slope argument.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@PurpleDaisies,

The last thing anyone wants is to put people in jail who are at high risk of spreading COVID. It can spread like fire in a prison population.

If people don't pay their fine, it can be passed to the bailiffs to confiscate goods to the value of the fine.[/quote]
And after that, if the still won’t get vaccinated? What happens then?

@PurpleDaisies

If you choose not to be vaccinated, then you should forfeit your right to enjoy the benefits of the nhs

So you’re expecting doctors to check the vaccination status of patients and then boot them out to die if they’re unvaccinated?

Yes. , doctors and medics should prioritize the treatment (covid and non covid) of vaccinated people. it'll never happen in this country though. . Too terrified of the backlash from the pc brigade.

The issue is not people getting it but the affects of getting it, hospitalizations being the main one. Vaccines stop most of these so the hospitals themselves don't become overwhelmed
Where I am the ICU is almost exclusively made up of the unvaccinated

This. In Austria and other countries in Europe the hospitals are having to triage who gets treated. Will the person with Covid or cancer or whichever op needs doing have a better chance of survival? that's the person who will get treated. Some hospitals are saying it's no longer a case of having 12 people and 10 beds, but having to decide from 20 people for those 10 beds.

@PurpleDaisies

Repeating your arguments doesn't make them stronger. You're still falling prey to the slippery slope fallacy.

Vaccinations should absolutely be compulsary, including for children. Being vaccinated is as much about protecting others as protecting the individual. It's,up to all of us to protect the most vulnerable members of society. If you choose not to be vaccinated, then you should forfeit your right to enjoy the benefits of the nhs

I wonder if you would feel the same if one of your loved ones died as a result of the vaccination. Or your child were left with lifelong problems. Most people feel it is a risk worth taking as the risks of the illness are much worse. But it should always be a choice.

@YungWaffle,

The current state retirement age is 68, so the 'over 60s' include an awful lot of the working population! It is also an extraordinarily callous way of looking at those over 60, as if they are far less important.

In addition, unless you actually want to allow no treatment to the old with COVID (do you?), the burden of treating them will mean that a lot of far younger people will die, both of COVID, and other normally treatable injuries and illnesses.

The danger of COVID to society is not just its high CFR, it is a product of its CFR and infectivity.

The only way we will get back to 'normal' in any reasonable time frame is a pervasive vaccine program. If there is not enough voluntary uptake (luckily, most be in the UK are grateful to get their vaccine), it will have to be mandatory.

[quote CaptSkippy]@PurpleDaisies

Repeating your arguments doesn't make them stronger. You're still falling prey to the slippery slope fallacy.[/quote]
I don’t think the top of the slope is right. People should not be fined for choosing not to be vaccinated.

@fakereview

It's funny you should mention deaths and life-long complications, because that is exactly what COVID does. And the disease itself has a much higher chance of causing that for you or one of your loved ones.

Would you be happy knowing they could have prevented that if they just got their d*mn shots?

@PurpleDaisies
Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

If you don't I recommend you Google it. They are quire fascinating

I notice you’re just attacking me personally here rather than trying to explain how mandatory vaccination would work in a civilised society.

In some countries deeming a vaccination as 'mandatory' simply means people can receive it for free via their insurance rather than paying, doesn't always mean people will be forced to have vaccination.

I'd be fine with saying if you refuse without medical grounds you forfeit your right to free care on the NHS. School place should be contingent on vaccines as well. Even place like the US, where they are arguably far more in favour of personal liberties, it's mandatory to have childhood jabs to start school. Do what you like but do it to your own cost. Why should we pay for other peoples selfish decisions?

@TheReluctantPhoenix
It is also an extraordinarily callous way of looking at those over 60, as if they are far less important.

They're not less important at all. They're just more at risk of dying in general (all-cause mortality). Covid is not new in this respect, so I don't think it requires state overreach to specifically protect them. That was literally my concluding point in my previous post.

If there is not enough voluntary uptake (luckily, most be in the UK are grateful to get their vaccine), it will have to be mandatory.

Again, almost literally what I said. I don't think the benefit of the remaining population being vaccinated is worth the cost of mandating it.

Just so we're clear, because you seem to be struggling to understand, this does not mean that I think people over 60 should not be treated or deserve to die. If they're sensible, they'd get vaccinated because they're most likely to die if they catch covid. The analysis is less clearcut for most younger people.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@PurpleDaisies,

The last thing anyone wants is to put people in jail who are at high risk of spreading COVID. It can spread like fire in a prison population.

If people don't pay their fine, it can be passed to the bailiffs to confiscate goods to the value of the fine.[/quote]
This article is talking about mandatory vaccination in Austria.

Those refusing to be vaccinated are likely to face administrative fines, which can be converted into a prison sentence if the fine cannot be recovered.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/austria-plans-compulsory-covid-vaccination-for-all