Aibu to be horrified at the thought of mandatory vaccinations

[TracyLords]

I’m not anti vax. I’ve had my jabs and will get booster this week.

There have been countries in the EU insisting on mandatory vaccination: this concerns me: surely it is up to the individual to decide to get vaccinated (or otherwise)

YANBU and I have been jabbed and boosted.

The State doesn't own people.

It would be impossible to enforce here (UK) anyway.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

So, should taxes be mandatory or voluntary?

In my (obviously expert) analysis, I would be so much better off personally and prefer to neither take from or give to the state.

And the risks to me of paying tax (dying poor) are far greater than the risks of not paying tax.

Has nothing to do with tax. That's money, not a medical procedure.

In any case, making tax theoretically mandatory doesn't stop people dodging it. It actually is voluntary for rich people and large companies.

I'm not 100% sure about the COVID vaccine being mandatory but I do believe all Children’s vaccines should be a parent shouldn't be able to decide if their child has a vaccine or not.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone,

That it is a total cop out.

Both taxes and vaccines are something which, whilst maybe detrimental to the individual are a boon to society.

Whether it is a ‘medical procedure’ or a ‘financial procedure’ is pretty irrelevant.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@daimbarsatemydogsbone,

That it is a total cop out.

Both taxes and vaccines are something which, whilst maybe detrimental to the individual are a boon to society.

Whether it is a ‘medical procedure’ or a ‘financial procedure’ is pretty irrelevant.[/quote]
Utter bollocks. They are very different.

How are taxes detrimental to the individual? If you add up everything you get from taxes, like healthcare, policing, street lights, libraries, defence and so on, it’s a huge benefit.
Vaccines are a huge benefit too. What you’re seeing is a diminish in trust. They trust in established vaccines.
If this was a vaccine that was eradicating covid, or covid was highly dangerous to all there would be more trust in it.

A friend worked in an ITU full of patients who had chosen not to be vaccinated.
It sounded horrific, and she has now left.

@IHateFlies,

Well I have paid A LOT of taxes in my llifetime. I have not used anything like that amount of state aid, so I can categorically say they are detrimental to me!

That is kind of the point of taxes. They take from those able to pay more and give to those who need to receive more. They are an averaging mechanism, not a wealth creation mechanism.

And, talking about trust diminution, enriching Boris et al's cronies is certainly diminishing my trust on how public money is spent.

In the same way, I could, were I a healthy 19 year old, say the vaccine was (v slightly) detrimentally to me personally. But I would take it to benefit everyone else.

The equation (or, in the case of a vaccine, more like inequality) is pretty simple. Sometimes, based on a democratic vote, we give up our individual freedoms in order to benefit society.

[quote TracyLords]@Waxonwaxoff0 that’s it! I considered the risks and benefits and decided to take the vaccination. I’ll be honest and say I think anyone not taking it is being a bit silly in my opinion. But I don’t think that the state should have the right to vaccinate people against their will[/quote]
Absolutely agree with you

Yabu I am horrified that people can choose to cause the deaths of others with zero consequences. Either someone contracting covid from them. Or more likely someone dying because no intensive care bed is available to them, or an ambulance doesn’t come in time as it’s taken up with someone unvaccinated with covid.
Tell me how much you believe in free choice when your relative dies due to preventable lack of nhs treatment available.

The vaccine is not guaranteed to stop anyone getting Covid. There are side effects. But people who’ve had it, are statistically far less likely to need hospital admission, and become seriously ill.

I am pro vaccine, but anti compulsion too.

But I do think there should be consequences for not having the vaccine (any vaccine, not just Covid). ie, no access to certain places or events, children not allowed to go to school if not vaccinated, maybe not covered by NHS if you actually get the disease (need medical insurance), not prioritised if ill over people with other serious illnesses etc.

Sometimes, based on a democratic vote, we give up our individual freedoms in order to benefit society.

We also draw lines on what freedoms we give up. You could make a good argument about mandatory abortion or sterilisations for all sorts of groups, but we generally draw a line and look derisively at countries that have gone down that route.
Mandating an injection is mandating an invasive medical procedure. If this thread is reflective at all, even most people who have been vaccinated would not vote for vaccines to be mandatory (myself included).
Taxes are probably the worst example you could have used. Taxes are mandated by the state and the state cannot exist without mandating taxation (becaus people will not give freely).
The truth is, you don't know whether they are "detrimental to you". You do not know what your day to day life would be like if the people around you didn't have access to free education and subsidised public transport. You don't know what it would be like if you had a private, profit-driven police force to deal with.
The implications and interactions stemming from taxation are much more complex than those from vaccination, but ultimately you pay taxes because you do not want to be surrounded by desperate people. That would be detrimental.

There are plenty of countries you can’t travel to without having had certain vaccinations. Plenty of jobs where certain vaccinations are compulsory.

I know 2 doctors who have gladly had mandatory vaccines for their job and voluntary vaccines for exotic travel now refusing the covid vaccine despite being frontline for the last 2 years.

Yes I do judge their capacity to practice when their actions defy what they've spent a decade in training and 10 years in practice.

Mandatory vaccination won’t end this mess though will it?

It isn’t stopping transmission either and we have to have vaccines pretty regularly…

It’s illogical to enforce something that is already ineffective.

The thought of being MADE to have a vaccine makes me very uneasy.

I came to a decision to have the vaccines because I didn’t want to die and didn’t want family members to die… it’s only (briefly) helpful with one of those but that’s just the way it is.

If the government is going to make me have it - it’s suddenly much less appealing and benign seeming! NO BLOODY THANKS!

@YungWaffle,

Well the consequences if no one took up the vaccine are very knowable: they would be devastating.

And the amount of taxes we pay these days are unprecedented. Go back 100 years, and taxes were a tiny fraction of what they are today, as was the state’s control over our lives.

The vast majority of people, even in my lifetime, would have been horrified at the size of the state budget, the redistribution of wealth, and the way we are constantly monitored.

The reality is, if the vaccine is mandated, within a few years, it will just be an accepted part of normal life, in the same way speed cameras, seat belts, constant CCTV surveillance etc are today.

Ordinarily yes, but if it’s a choice between lockdown and compulsory vaccines, both of which impede our freedom I would choose compulsory vaccine which affects the freedom of a few rather than compulsory lockdown for all.

YANBU.

I believe in bodily autonomy. We should be able to choose whether we will have a medical procedure or not. I think it's going down a dark path if we do not allow people to choose.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@YungWaffle,

Well the consequences if no one took up the vaccine are very knowable: they would be devastating.

And the amount of taxes we pay these days are unprecedented. Go back 100 years, and taxes were a tiny fraction of what they are today, as was the state’s control over our lives.

The vast majority of people, even in my lifetime, would have been horrified at the size of the state budget, the redistribution of wealth, and the way we are constantly monitored.

The reality is, if the vaccine is mandated, within a few years, it will just be an accepted part of normal life, in the same way speed cameras, seat belts, constant CCTV surveillance etc are today.[/quote]
None of those things involve a needle in the arm.

It shouldn't be mandatory.

I took it for vunerable people and I wanted to see an end.

Several reasons for not taking the vaccination from certain people in RL are ridiculously and tinfoil hat scenarios or flat out don't believe in Covid19.

This particular group are far from health conscious individuals.

I purposely avoid the conversations.

Everyone has the right to make an informed decision but the misinformation from some making a decision is ridiculous, microchips, DNA, fake news.

@TheReluctantPhoenix
We don't know what the consequences of no uptake will be because most people take the vaccine. I'm not sure what you consider devastating either. This is not a particularly virulent disease. The vast majority of people, even unvaccinated, will be fine. Which is not to say no measures should be put in place (I'm someone who would prefer people work from home if they have a cold), but we do not need to mandate invasive medical procedures.

The reality is, if the vaccine is mandated, within a few years, it will just be an accepted part of normal life, in the same way speed cameras, seat belts, constant CCTV surveillance etc are today.

You are 100% right. States will grab power when they are given an opportunity and be very reluctant to give it back. Noone will vote for government to be allowed to perform medical procedures on them against their will but some people will vote for a mandatory vaccination and never actually read the bill.
People born into that situation will, generally, not realise that they have lost something and the state will reach for more power from this new baseline. This is not a good thing and it's exactly why ideas like mandatory vaccination should be scrutinized.

YABU
People are dying and not just from COVID either. It's because the ICU is backup by fools not getting vaccinated. Unvaccinated pregnant women, in particular, tend to be there for weeks with their lives on the line.

Vaccinated people often don't end up in the ICU and if they do they are there for a shorter period of time. If everyone who medically can get vaccinated gets it, then operations for people with potentially fatal disease and chronic pain can continue. Whole classes of kids would not be to be send home very couple of weeks. Health care workers would no longer be continually on the point of burn out.

COVID is so bad, that I don't see how we can continue to deal with it, without vaccinations and periodic booster shots.

How many times are you going to force people to be vaccinated? Just the original double vax course? Or one booster? Or two? Five? When does it end?

This is not the way out of it. I am massively pro vaccination. We need to win the argument, not entrench anti vaxxers further in their views by trying to force them to comply with a state mandate.

I know what you mean but I voted YABU because to be honest I’m more horrified by mandatory lockdowns and banning of seeing family / friends and having general freedom. I don’t want that to happen again. I don’t want my kids to be denied schooling again. The whole thing is rubbish but vaccination is the way out so I can’t say I’m aghast at the idea of it being mandatory. I’d be aghast at being forced to stay at home for weeks on end again though.