Just been kicked out of a group for objecting to being referred to as my reproductive organs

[Gerlais]

Group on Facebook. I was referred to as a “uterus owner”. I objected to this. I’m now banned from the group for being transphobic. Everyone piled on me and if I wasn’t kicked out I would have been leaving anyway. I don’t care what other people want to be called but I will not be referred to as my reproductive organs!! It’s not transphobic to want to be referred to as a woman if you were in fact born female and wish to remain a woman? surely?? Or AIBU?

Do you really think that anyone anywhere is preventing us from calling ourselves women?

Yes, unless you are saying the OP is a liar.

This is happening more and more frequently online, in the workplace and in medical settings.

Do you think that women should just shut up when they experience this? Who benefits from that?

Scepticalcat … I don’t know if transwomen would want to be in that space either? If they have been raped and assaulted then adding an extra layer difficulty to their therapy may not be good. Or maybe within the group the women support each other (including the transwoman) as they have a shared experience. I don’t know, I’m not trans - I’m just guessing. The issue for me is the terrible underfunding of resources for support groups and survivors of violence and the low prosecution rates. I think as our understanding of gender issues grows we need to work together to redefine what it means to create a safe space for all.

Women are uterus havers. Men are still men and trans identified males are now women. Of course we had to change our definition because we needed to move over.

think as our understanding of gender issues grows we need to work together to redefine what it means to create a safe space for all

Many traumatised women want, and are entitled at law to have single sex spaces.

An understanding of 'gender' doesn't and will never change that fact.

Why don't traumatised women matter to you?

@ButtonSister

I really don't get the logic of chest feeder - to feed a human infant you need to produce milk from the mammary glands which are housed in female breasts. If you don't have breasts you can't do that, however much you wish to identify as someone without breasts.

Not strictly true, men can produce breast milk. They have milk ducts and some mammary tissue.

The issue for me is the terrible underfunding of resources for support groups and survivors of violence

So you'll be outraged that the rise centre in Brighton was withdrawn funding.

Would you like to know why.
I suspect not.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/14129416/domestic-abuse-charity-gender-neutral/amp/

In terms of rape crisis services, it isn't a case of our 'understanding of gender issues' changing. There are single sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010 which specifically cover single sex spaces being lawful with a specific example given for rape crisis services. There's a thread running at the moment which is about a woman who has asked a rape crisis service for a single sex group in addition to a 'women's group' (in reality for those who 'identify as women'), a man's group, a trans specific group and (I believe) a non binary group.

Her request for an additional group was denied and now women who, for a variety of different reasons, cannot access a mixed sex group cannot access any service. This is happening across the country.

There should of course be a range of services to meet service user's needs, including trans people. But women are the only group who are not allowed to have a group to meet their needs.

Why?

I think as our understanding of gender issues grows we need to work together to redefine what it means to create a safe space for all.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by our understanding of gender 'growing' but it doesn't have any impact on the fact that you can't change biological sex.

That matters. There are women who will be triggered by a biologically male body, no matter what that person identifies as or how they understand their gender.

Gender identification is immaterial to the woman who needs a safe space, away from triggers, to get help for past trauma. She can't just talk herself out of this trigger. Why are you ignoring that woman's needs?

And in terms of language changing, the gas lighting bothers me. The conversation seems to go like this -

'We aren't very keen about the language we use to refer to ourselves being changed.'

'Don't be ridiculous- it's not happening!'

'It is - here's various examples'.

'No, it's not happening, you're all just pearl clutchers!'

'No seriously, here's more examples, both anecdotally and in mainstream use by NHS, Scottish Government etc'

'Nope, not happening'.

The fingers in ears approach only works for so long.

@Wobblyhousehunt

Scepticalcat … I don’t know if transwomen would want to be in that space either? If they have been raped and assaulted then adding an extra layer difficulty to their therapy may not be good. Or maybe within the group the women support each other (including the transwoman) as they have a shared experience. I don’t know, I’m not trans - I’m just guessing. The issue for me is the terrible underfunding of resources for support groups and survivors of violence and the low prosecution rates. I think as our understanding of gender issues grows we need to work together to redefine what it means to create a safe space for all.

I may be able to help you there, if you want to hear the truth about funding for refuges! Ask me, I work for a group of local charities, including a refuge, and, when not in our foodbank, I work on funding streams, writing bids etc.

Ask me why we lost 40% of our Lottery funding 2 years ago. I will tell you that we were told that, as a womens refuge we were not diverse enough, specifically, in writing, twice, that we did not include men!

'Transwomen' and women do not have a shared experience of rape. Think about that carefully. Don't guess. The support needed, medical advice, signposting etc is all very, very different. And it costs a bloody fortune finding the expertise, safe spaces, work partners etc to set up a group that can offer trans identified men and women the specific support they need.

My understanding of gender differences is that they make sex based therapy more and more important.

I DO know what this entails. I CAN answer those questions and tell you that your version of inclusivity will empty a room of women, denying them the support they so desperately need.

@FOJN

Do we know what rights the poster thinks they should have that they don't?

I think this is a fascinating question. Gender reassignment is a protected characteristics under the equalities act which means they have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

The GRA gives trans people the right to be issued with a new birth certificate with a new name and sex (should be gender) marker, most other official documents can be changed without a GRC.

Who else can apply for a birth certificate with different details to the original?

One could argue that some trans people have privileges the rest of us don't. Self ID would extend that privilege to anyone who simply asks for it. If a birth certificate can be changed to reflect the way someone feels then what useful purpose do they serve? Could someone get their date of birth changed if they feel you get or older than they actually are? If not, why not?

TRA's (Trans Rights Activists) are looking to change the UK legislation to be similar to the Irish Gender Recognition Act.

In Ireland it's self documented self ID so anyone born in Ireland can get a new birth cert and passport, with new name and sex marker.
No medical checks, no criminal checks needed.

You can fill in the application form and 90 days later the State has to either supply a cert or face court action.

When dealing with Jo Public there is no obligation on the holder to prove they have been granted legally recognition as the opposite sex by the Irish State.

Jo Public single sex service provider is mainly unaware that they could be fined by the Irish State for believing their own eyes.

When Sarah's experience came out in the media (thread on fwr) the situation was there was already a dedicated rape support group for trans and non binary people. It wasn't like there wasn't any support for the person who came into the women's group instead.

There was a specific, tailored group, only for them.

And yet they chose to come into the women's group, upsetting the women in there, and the women chose to leave. There was no sign of transition, they presented as and were obviously male.

They didn't share any of their experiences with the group. They didn't offer support. They just sat and listened as women talked about what had happened to them feeling uncomfortable as they did so. So the women left. The support group refused to service the need of a female only space (despite the head of Stonewall saying on the radio that if a woman requires a single sex space it should be available).

Of course everyone involved feels very sorry for Sarah and the others and hopes they can find support they require elsewhere, washing their hands of it. But there is none. Those women have no support.

So is that the right thing to do, in the name of inclusiveness? Leave one group who need support out in the cold to make another group feel better? Despite the other group already having support just for them?

It's just take, take, take. Women have had enough.

This thread got me thinking some more. I have many questions.

Can people with breast cancer ask their oncologists to change their diagnosis to 'chest cancer'? And would that be granted? I somehow doubt it. So why are maternity wards embracing the term chest feeding? Whether it's a man or women or TW/TM they are feeding their baby with their breasts. Where does the science stop and the feelings begin? Where exactly is that line or does nobody really know?

Are there not safeguarding organisations who could actively campaign against the obvious risks posed by self ID? Who do we write to? The post above about the young 'trans' girl and confused classmates made a good point. What's this teaching our daughters?

Are biology teachers/ lecturers to be targeted by TRAs next for teaching basic science? I would love to know how they feel about all this.

Robert Winston has talked about getting hate mail for stating biological facts like you can't change sex

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1506419/BBC-QT-Question-time-transgender-debate-news-latest-update-vn/amp

@musicalfrog couple of links that you might find useful -
www.sexmatters.org
safeschoolsallianceuk.net

Sorry, l'll use the correct link for Sex Matters this time!
sex-matters.org/about/

extract

One of Scotland’s greatest swimmers is retiring from competition to start a business which helps elite athletes cope with the debilitating symptoms of their periods during top-level competition.

Hannah Miley, a double Commonwealth champion, is on a mission to make the female experience in sport better than her own.

A lack of options and education for British women meant that some ranked in the top three in the world heading into competitions including the Olympics, were out of contention when competition day coincided their periods, she said.

(Continues)

The aim is to “take the guesswork out of training”, a message Miley understands well as a swimmer who excelled through leaving “no stone unturned”. She said that she had given a presentation at a British university when a transgender female [note: that means transwoman. Purgatory] in the audience had said that she “did not appreciate me using the terms woman, girl, her and said, ‘You should use the term those who menstruate.’”

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/swimmer-hannah-miley-helps-athletes-perform-with-their-periods-vh30gssxg

So what was that someone said about how our language wasn't being policed?

@MothExterminator

I don’t understand why we all can’t just get along and be kind to each other?

But I don’t want to be called a uterus haver.
I was hoping to join a menopause group as I am having terrible symptoms. But I really don’t want to be dealing with this at the moment . I have no idea of what I can and can’t say.

I’m sorry but this is so woefully naive and inadequate. The time for ‘be kind’ has passed. This doesn’t mean that we have to be unkind, but can no longer acquiesce to the absolute and complete bollocks we are being asked to accept.

. Or maybe within the group the women support each other (including the transwoman) as they have a shared experience.

I think you will find that the male experience of rape is very different to the female experience and their needs are very different. Placing male persons in a female group will only result in neither sex getting the help they need.

I don’t think it is very helpful to call people naive and inadequate. Or dumping loads of information which has nothing to do with this thread.

But I also don’t understand why some people here say that there is transphobia on this thread. Could someone tell me which statements are transphobic?

I do think we need to be kind and respectful to each other. It is really unhelpful if people here starts name calling and if people aren’t allowed to go about their lives in peace.

But I think it seems awful if you are thrown out from a group because you don’t want to be called a uterus haver. That sounds like you have a dog.

And I still don’t really get why a transwoman would be joining a menopause group. I thought those groups only were for people who went through menopause? If you can’t talk about menopause issues and have to watch your language, what it the point of the group?

I genuinely hope this post doesn’t come across as transphobic. I am just trying to understand this better.

@musicalfrog many schools and academic institutions have already been targeted and many are already captured. Good idea to keep an eye on the materials used and the topics covered in PHSE. Safer Schools Alliance are fab.

SolasAnla

Not sure what the purpose of your response to my post was. I think I was pretty clear on the implications of self ID. Perhaps you were posting more detailed info for those not aware.

@MothExterminator

I don’t think it is very helpful to call people naive and inadequate. Or dumping loads of information which has nothing to do with this thread.

But I also don’t understand why some people here say that there is transphobia on this thread. Could someone tell me which statements are transphobic?

I do think we need to be kind and respectful to each other. It is really unhelpful if people here starts name calling and if people aren’t allowed to go about their lives in peace.

But I think it seems awful if you are thrown out from a group because you don’t want to be called a uterus haver. That sounds like you have a dog.

And I still don’t really get why a transwoman would be joining a menopause group. I thought those groups only were for people who went through menopause? If you can’t talk about menopause issues and have to watch your language, what it the point of the group?

I genuinely hope this post doesn’t come across as transphobic. I am just trying to understand this better.

I didn’t call anyone inadequate. I said the response of ‘be kind’ is inadequate. Which it is. It’s why we are where we are. It’s how it’s been allowed to get this far.

Do you really think that anyone anywhere is preventing us from calling ourselves women?

I've found myself called a cervix haver, bleeder and person assigned female at birth in the last few weeks, without seeking any of it out (why would I do that?), so yes, I do.