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AIBU?

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No Religious Christmas cards

311 replies

mumofEandE · 28/11/2021 23:05

I was in one of those 'cheap card shops' and a customer asked if there were any Religious Christmas cards.
There weren't.
I am not a practising Christian/ or practising anything (!) but this really made me feel that this is wrong!

OP posts:
BewareTheBeardedDragon · 29/11/2021 09:56

@mustlovegin

What matters is we celebrate it at the darkest time of the year - and that's why they put the celebration around the time of other deep winter festivals

Some posters are bending over backwards to erase the fact that Christmas is a religious celebration.

If you bold the word 'fact' it makes it extra true.

I don't think anyone with any kind of critical thinking skills could argue that Christmas did not replace a similar existing festival - though of course these were also religious. Christmas is indeed a Christian festival, but many of the traditions do not have their root in Christianity, and these are largely the traditions which people seem to be holding onto most nowadays. Lights, trees, greenery, feasting. None of this is uniquely or originally Christian as part of the midwinter celebrations.

I watched Brian Cox's The Universe on iPlayer recently in which he pretty convincingly argues that the first gods were in fact the stars which are actually (fact) the source of all life in the universe, being the actual creators of all the elements other than hydrogen and helium, without which the universe would be nothing but a vast void with some gas floating around.

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/11/2021 09:57

Lots in the various charity shops. Presumably solely commercial ventures not also fulfilling a social need don’t stock them because there’s just not enough demand.

Babdoc · 29/11/2021 10:04

moonmelodies, it is obvious you have never read the relevant Bible passage if you think Mary’s pregnancy was “coerced”.
The archangel Gabriel explained God’s plan for her to conceive, and Mary gave her consent in the following words:
“Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it unto to me according to thy word.”
And Christians do not say Jesus was born on 25th Dec, or try to hijack pagan Yule. Nobody knows his actual birthdate.
We simply celebrate his birth at the time when the daylight is beginning to noticeably increase after the solstice on the 21st - because we regard Christ as the Light of the World.
And Easter is held at the time of Jewish Passover, as that is the date of his crucifixion and resurrection.
HTH.

Moonmelodies · 29/11/2021 10:07

@Babdoc

moonmelodies, it is obvious you have never read the relevant Bible passage if you think Mary’s pregnancy was “coerced”. The archangel Gabriel explained God’s plan for her to conceive, and Mary gave her consent in the following words: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it unto to me according to thy word.” And Christians do not say Jesus was born on 25th Dec, or try to hijack pagan Yule. Nobody knows his actual birthdate. We simply celebrate his birth at the time when the daylight is beginning to noticeably increase after the solstice on the 21st - because we regard Christ as the Light of the World. And Easter is held at the time of Jewish Passover, as that is the date of his crucifixion and resurrection. HTH.
With the power imbalance, and God's reputation as a mass killer and tantrum thrower, she was hardly going to say anything different, was she?
NovemberNovemberDarkNights · 29/11/2021 10:27

Supposedly being 'sad' because another customer couldn't find an item in the shop that's currently available in many shops is a massive over reaction & something we'd describe as attention seeking nonsense.

ElvisPresleyHadABaby · 29/11/2021 10:36

@Moonmelodies

For many people the Nativity element of Christmas can be distasteful, when you consider the coercive nature of Mary's impregnation, given the considerable power imbalance between a humble peasant girl and an omnipotent creator of universes with a history of violent tantrums.
Grin they're not going to like this...
ABCeasyasdohrayme · 29/11/2021 10:38

@Moonmelodies

For many people the Nativity element of Christmas can be distasteful, when you consider the coercive nature of Mary's impregnation, given the considerable power imbalance between a humble peasant girl and an omnipotent creator of universes with a history of violent tantrums.
I've never seen it put quite like that before... but you're not wrong 😂😂
Babdoc · 29/11/2021 10:43

moonmelodies, you have a wilfully negative view of God. The Jews addressed him as "Daddy" (abba), regarding Him as a loving parent figure.
They were not in the least afraid to complain to Him - try reading the psalms! God does not throw "tantrums" - and offered His own self, in the incarnation of Jesus, as a sacrifice in the ultimate act of love for His creation.
It was humans who tortured and murdered Him, not the other way around.
And many Old Testament stories attributing deaths to acts of God were simply allegorical, or down to the primitive tribesmen of the time seeking explanations for natural or human events.

Thousands of years ago, winning a battle = God must be smiting our enemies, whereas losing = God is punishing us.
It does not in the least follow that God shared their views or took any part in mass murder. One assumes He is more likely to have regarded it with revulsion and sadness.

Moonmelodies · 29/11/2021 10:55

Sorry I forgot, the bad stuff, floods etc, are merely allegorical.

Chakraleaf · 29/11/2021 10:55

I don't have a problem with this!

DeepaBeesKit · 29/11/2021 10:56

Christians do not say Jesus was born on 25th Dec, or try to hijack pagan Yule. Nobody knows his actual birthdate. We simply celebrate his birth at the time when the daylight is beginning to noticeably increase after the solstice on the 21st - because we regard Christ as the Light of the World. And Easter is held at the time of Jewish Passover, as that is the date of his crucifixion and resurrection.

I don't think anyone is picking holes in the fact that there is a Christian celebration of Christmas, simply pointing out there's an equally valid set of secular traditions too and expressing the opinion that in a largely secular society it's not a surprise that the secular festival may have a bigger role for many.

DeepaBeesKit · 29/11/2021 10:57

Moonmelodies don't know know? You are allowed to choose which bits of the Bible are factual and which allegorical/symbolic to suit your religious purpose. Grin

yellowflowersintherain · 29/11/2021 11:00

I usually try and get a mix of religious and non-religious Christmas cards. I haven't noticed any issues finding the religious ones. Maybe it depends what you class as religious? Some of mine have angels on them this year...

mustlovegin · 29/11/2021 11:01

that in a largely secular society it's not a surprise that the secular festival may have a bigger role for many

The UK is not a majority secular society, repeating this over and over will not make it true

MaggieFS · 29/11/2021 11:13

I don't disagree but sadly it's the way of the world. My employer does cards for clients but makes sure they only say 'Season's Greetings' so as not to offend anyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas. Go figure.

BiBabbles · 29/11/2021 11:13

I've seen several religious looking Christmas cards just going past shops.

I'm with those who said it's likely a misunderstanding or the employee just didn't want to get into it what that customer meant by a religious card. That might be sad, but I can understand wanting to move things along quickly particularly if it was a small shop where what's on display is pretty self evident and leaving the counter may cause other customers to leave.

What matters is we celebrate it at the darkest time of the year - and that's why they put the celebration around the time of other deep winter festivals

While there are some theories that fusing Christian ideas with celebrations already going on in winter (though which celebration varies by theory), the earliest references to that date are largely more focused on when Jesus was conceived and then doing over-rudimentary maths that I think don't really understand how pregnancy works. There was some ideas that he must have been conceived either on the same date he died (this is said of a few Biblical and similar figures) or around the Spring Equinox and then just counted from there. I don't really think the early church that fixed the date had much purpose of ensuring it was in the darkest time of year, at least I've not seen much evidence for that, anymore than I think the move of All Saints Day from May to October really had much care for what season it was in.

Never heard or seen written one such objection.

Wrestling with the Bible has a long tradition, both in content and - even more in recent years - how the history of how they were created, copied, translation shifts, and such that made them into their current forms and how that is used by modern churches. The Christian deconstruction movements which have been growing for the last couple of decades both from devout Christians - possibly in response to the vocal issues with those who go on about it being literal and inerrant - and those who were raised in and either question aspects of or have left the religion.

The discussion around whether a child can really give consent to a deity is a common talking point, particularly in how that idea is used in some modern churches with how children of that age are viewed (that and whether Paul was one of the false prophets Jesus warned about as he practically ticks every box, that might actually be the most common talking point in recent years with more recognition of the denominations that exclude works attributed to him and some being of the opinion that certain churches follow Paul more than Jesus).

The archangel Gabriel explained God’s plan for her to conceive, and Mary gave her consent in the following words

Quoting the gospels as evidence of consent makes sense if you think they're literal and inerrant & that a deity can never be wrong.

If you consider they were anonymous for centuries before the church put 'as written by' on them, are currently thought to have been written at least decades if not longer after the events, that they were written in a language the apostles were unlikely to speak and that they were largely illiterate and the Luke excludes himself as an apostle (he knew Paul, not Jesus), that literacy in that time was often just knowing how to read and write one's name and be able to copy and that any manuscript study of the texts is a copy of a copy...of one of those copies, that even in those copies we can see changes that were made - thing written over - quoting scripture is the start of a discussion into the concept, not the end.

And there is nothing in early church history I've seen that suggests that the dating had anything to do with Christ being a light to the world. That's a nice modern interpretation which I think is lovely, but there is little evidence that the early church thought that when it fixed the date.

many Old Testament stories attributing deaths to acts of God were simply allegorical, or down to the primitive tribesmen of the time seeking explanations for natural or human events.

Many New Testament stories can be viewed as allegory as well - including Mary's consent.

It does not in the least follow that God shared their views or took any part in mass murder.

There are several mass murders attributed to his direct action along with those that were his direct command. Treating all of the bad things as allegory of natural phenomenons and 'primitive' people (like Jesus?) and all the nice things as real is part of why the deconstruction movement has been growing. Many can see how harmful it has been to the church to continuously erase and push aside the problems in the text - in content, creation, and on-going changes and uses - when it's still used as the standard and an icon of faith.

depremesnil · 29/11/2021 11:36

@mustlovegin

that in a largely secular society it's not a surprise that the secular festival may have a bigger role for many

The UK is not a majority secular society, repeating this over and over will not make it true

Yes, sadly we still have a state religion.
Blackmagicqueen · 29/11/2021 11:38

'Aren't Christmas cards by their nature religious? People who don't celebrate a Christmas don't send them'

Hmm some Christians don't celebrate Christmas

PlanktonsComputerWife · 29/11/2021 12:49

We live in a Muslim-majority area and no one has told us Christmas is being erased. Magnificent giant nutcrackers surrounding Santa's grotto, and trees going up everywhere. I am planning out a front garden display and it will be bright and it will be obnoxious!

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 29/11/2021 13:15

@Cryalot2

Surely Christmas is about the birth of Christ. I don't know of any church that sells anything . Most are places of worship. Online is a good place . The faith mission tends to sell such .
Our town centre church has a shop selling charity cards and other Christmas bits from late October every year. There are always some cards with the Nativity or 3 wise men, etc. It also has a cafe, which is usually a haven of peace after busy shops.
WorriedMumsDontSleep · 29/11/2021 13:30

As Dave Gorman points out, everyone wants penguins and noone wants the three wise men.

Ellen888 · 29/11/2021 13:49

Plenty of Religious Cards on-line;

acnuk.org/shop-landing-page/

www.shrineshoponline.co.uk/collections/christmas-cards

MadeOfStarStuff · 29/11/2021 13:54

You do rather sound like you’re trying too hard to be offended especially since you weren’t even the one looking for them!

Ellen888 · 29/11/2021 13:59

And what's the craic about the 3 Wise Men? They weren't around at Christmas - they didn't come until Epiphany which is a week or so later !

WorriedMumsDontSleep · 29/11/2021 14:09

Are they wise because their lateness meant they could pick up bargain gifts in the January sales?(not wise though because they appear to have gone to lush and h Samuels for a newborn)