To think there are some strange views on "Class" on MN?

[Flapjacker48]

It is undeniable that there is still a class system in the UK. There seems be some odd ideas about it on MN. This is inspired by the recent thread about Christmas decorations.

1.) Possessing a certain item or not is a huge class indicator (rubbish)

2.) That obtaining (or not) certain standards of education defines, or indeed changes your class (again rubbish)

3.) That class is defined by income alone, the "I earn x so I'm middle class!" type views

Does anyone really think that money defines class? Would you say a aristocratic widow who has lost all her money/house is now working class? Or that Wayne and Coleen Rooney are upper middle class due to income?

4.) The view that your interests somehow make you a certain class. Saying, for example, "I'm working class, but have middle class tastes like radio 4, theatre etc" thus (offensively) implying that working class people could never have such interests....

Class is just another manifestation of the British obsession with finding ways to hate each other.

Usually the class remarks that I notice most are Goading Lefty ones. Often criticising taste rather than income.
This is one of the problems with the Angela Rayner approach to politics.
"the working class should reject good taste. Being polite is soft southern Poshness. See photograph of wreath laying.

@jamie85

Usually the class remarks that I notice most are Goading Lefty ones. Often criticising taste rather than income. This is one of the problems with the Angela Rayner approach to politics. "the working class should reject good taste. Being polite is soft southern Poshness. See photograph of wreath laying.

I don't think I have ever seen anything more fucking ridiculous ever posted on here.

"We are at last experiencing a new empire, an empire where the happy south stamps over the cruel, dirty, toothless face of the northerner. "

Michael Gove - not a "lefty" last time I looked.

Nastiness comes from all sides.

@BettyBag

Holy fuck this thread is offensive.

Honestly, this is nothing. I'm amazed it's as restrained as it is. They're usually much nuttier. Check out the one I linked earlier.

@IfNot

I agree. So many people making sweeping generalisations about character when the simple truth is that many outcomes are down to luck.

Ignoring inherited wealth in this is ridiculous and offensive. I say that as someone who grew up in a working class family and went to Cambridge.

We are all supposed to be polite and not notice, and certainly not mention the increasing inequality in this country.
More and more people struggling to have a roof over their head, while the government pumped taxpayers money into keeping house prices high/ More and more people struggling to put food on the table, while the number of millionaires grows.
Of course, it is bad "taste" to mention income and money. Its perfectly good taste to blame poor people for their poverty though.

I do find this entire subject endlessly fascinating. We British do appear to be slightly obsessed by pigeon-holing people and putting them in neat boxes so we can work out whether they are like us or not (and whether we should like them too!).

When my daughter was studying sociology we used to discuss 'cultural capital' and, I believe, there was also a documentary about it. This is a combination of money plus social 'assets' such as style of dress, speech, education, intellect that added together give someone social mobility. The documentary interviewed a really hard-working, diligent Grade A / First Class degree chap who was struggling to get a job in asset management because of the way he dressed, the fact that he couldn't really answer 'what school did you go to' and because he had no anecdotes to share about hunting or skiing or St Barts. The documentary explained that the high net worth individuals who he would have been working for would want 'someone like them' to manage their share portfolios and wouldn't feel comfortable that this person couldn't hang out with them.

I know I am hugely blessed. Private education leading to great networks that have likely helped me in my career. I am happy to mix with old money (as I went to school with them) and wouldn't put a foot wrong / drop a vowel / or tell an anecdote out of turn. BUT I am skint! I live in a rented house, earn a fairly decent salary but am a divorced, mother-of-one. I know 'how to behave' (and I say that massively tongue in cheek) but also find it so frustrating that my parents are still almost Victorian in their approach and ways about the way 'one should behave'.

When I first introduced my boyfriend to them, he happened to be wearing a cap (we'd been swimming in the sea and his hair was a mess) which, because he didn't remove it on entering their house, was commented on for months afterwards (and I quote "but it's just so disrespectful in my house"). I fleetingly did think about asking him to remove it before we went in but thought how mad that would sound but yup - true to form - my parents found it an affront to their hospitality (although not mentioned at the time because another rule is 'never make anyone knowingly feel uncomfortable').

These kind of unspoken rules that the upper classes live by are actually quite impenetrable unless you've grown up around them and immediately make you stand out as not being one of them.

My sister and I (both of whom have basically eschewed much of how we were brought up) say in a withering tone "one doesn't does one?" to take the piss mightily over things like signing the visitor's book when you stay the night or asking someone if they'd like some water before pouring your own. I'm lucky in that I have been brought up with manners but I prefer to judge people on their merits - honesty and kindness being the most important.

And the idea that the middle class is all about delayed gratification and the working class is all about living in the now is offensive as fuck.
I think of all the working-class parents saving all year round so their kids can have toys or a bike that some middle-class parents would just go out and buy for their child without a second thought.
Or the amount of overtime many working-class people do for months and months to afford an annual holiday.

@julieca

And the idea that the middle class is all about delayed gratification and the working class is all about living in the now is offensive as fuck. I think of all the working-class parents saving all year round so their kids can have toys or a bike that some middle-class parents would just go out and buy for their child without a second thought. Or the amount of overtime many working-class people do for months and months to afford an annual holiday.

Absolutely. Work as a binman for a long period and you’ll learn a lorryload about delayed gratification, working-class style.

@MidLifeResurgence74

I do find this entire subject endlessly fascinating. We British do appear to be slightly obsessed by pigeon-holing people and putting them in neat boxes so we can work out whether they are like us or not (and whether we should like them too!).

When my daughter was studying sociology we used to discuss 'cultural capital' and, I believe, there was also a documentary about it. This is a combination of money plus social 'assets' such as style of dress, speech, education, intellect that added together give someone social mobility. The documentary interviewed a really hard-working, diligent Grade A / First Class degree chap who was struggling to get a job in asset management because of the way he dressed, the fact that he couldn't really answer 'what school did you go to' and because he had no anecdotes to share about hunting or skiing or St Barts. The documentary explained that the high net worth individuals who he would have been working for would want 'someone like them' to manage their share portfolios and wouldn't feel comfortable that this person couldn't hang out with them.

I know I am hugely blessed. Private education leading to great networks that have likely helped me in my career. I am happy to mix with old money (as I went to school with them) and wouldn't put a foot wrong / drop a vowel / or tell an anecdote out of turn. BUT I am skint! I live in a rented house, earn a fairly decent salary but am a divorced, mother-of-one. I know 'how to behave' (and I say that massively tongue in cheek) but also find it so frustrating that my parents are still almost Victorian in their approach and ways about the way 'one should behave'.

When I first introduced my boyfriend to them, he happened to be wearing a cap (we'd been swimming in the sea and his hair was a mess) which, because he didn't remove it on entering their house, was commented on for months afterwards (and I quote "but it's just so disrespectful in my house"). I fleetingly did think about asking him to remove it before we went in but thought how mad that would sound but yup - true to form - my parents found it an affront to their hospitality (although not mentioned at the time because another rule is 'never make anyone knowingly feel uncomfortable').

These kind of unspoken rules that the upper classes live by are actually quite impenetrable unless you've grown up around them and immediately make you stand out as not being one of them.

My sister and I (both of whom have basically eschewed much of how we were brought up) say in a withering tone "one doesn't does one?" to take the piss mightily over things like signing the visitor's book when you stay the night or asking someone if they'd like some water before pouring your own. I'm lucky in that I have been brought up with manners but I prefer to judge people on their merits - honesty and kindness being the most important.

Its interesting that you describe it as being hugely blessed as from my WC perspective id find it really stressful to have to remember all the etiquette, and know to I'd be sneered at if I made a mistake. Though I suppose if i was UC it would be second nature. Id love to have the money associated with being UC, but the lifestyle seems quite restrictive, with all those rules.

@julieca

And the idea that the middle class is all about delayed gratification and the working class is all about living in the now is offensive as fuck. I think of all the working-class parents saving all year round so their kids can have toys or a bike that some middle-class parents would just go out and buy for their child without a second thought. Or the amount of overtime many working-class people do for months and months to afford an annual holiday.

I agree, it is completely offensive.

The so-called middle classes would do well to look at their standard of living and remember just who it is who has worked so hard since the onset of Covid. Was it all the lawyers, marketing consultants, bankers and the like who have kept the country running over the last, well, nearly two years? Was it fuck.

While you all sat on your smug middle class arses working at your highly-paid careers from the comfort and safety of your own homes, all the people who had to carry on doing their jobs were all those working class people you so despise.

@5128gap I have asked various OAPs how they met their OHs (or in some cases first OH). Some of them deliberately went to a particular type of club or association as they knew they could pick up the "right" type of partner there.

@BeaMends many healthcare professions are MC and didn't go into hiding during Covid. Likewise my own MP, who is MC, was around and not "working" in the Virgin Islands.

@BeaMends and the debt thing. Getting into debt for a washing machine is cheaper than going to the laundrette every week. And I did go to the laundrette every week for a while, very expensive. The suggestion was that middle-class people would wash their clothes in a bath while they saved up for a washing machine. Frankly, I don't believe it. Maybe for a few weeks, but no more than that.
My mum washed all her family washing in the bath for a few years. It took her a whole day to wash and dry them. It is hard physical work that no one with any choice at all would do.

@MidLifeResurgence74 thanks for your honest post. I suspect though your skint would be aspirational to me.

[quote julieca]@BeaMends and the debt thing. Getting into debt for a washing machine is cheaper than going to the laundrette every week. And I did go to the laundrette every week for a while, very expensive. The suggestion was that middle-class people would wash their clothes in a bath while they saved up for a washing machine. Frankly, I don't believe it. Maybe for a few weeks, but no more than that.
My mum washed all her family washing in the bath for a few years. It took her a whole day to wash and dry them. It is hard physical work that no one with any choice at all would do.[/quote]
I completely agree with this. Theres no way a MC person would wash clothes in a bath other than as some sort of novelty 'live like the common people' pretend play. Because if it came to that I'm pretty sure one set of parents would step in with the money to buy a washing machine.

@MatildaIThink

Money does not equal class, middle or upper class does not equal wealth.

It is about the different attitudes to a lot of things, but I think the two most defining characteristics of middle class vs working class are an ability to delay gratification and an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn.

Yes, because working class people don't like to learn

an open minded attitude with a continued desire to learn

This is my favourite bit. I'd love to hear more about how the middle classes have a more open minded attitude.

Its working-class white people started having relationships with black migrants, at a time when most white middle-class people would not have.
Who is most open-minded?

@julieca

Its working-class white people started having relationships with black migrants, at a time when most white middle-class people would not have. Who is most open-minded?

Maybe the middle classes were taking the delayed gratification approach?

julieca it didn't take very long for someone to try to steer an interesting conversation towards race and have a go at the usual group, did it?

@julieca

Its working-class white people started having relationships with black migrants, at a time when most white middle-class people would not have. Who is most open-minded?

What utter drivel.

@Pontypandytaxpayer

I think class is most definitely alive and well in the UK.

Absolutely it is and is very much worn on the sleeve by those who inhabit the upper echelons of the class system.

It does amuse me though when 'class' is seen as uniquely British phenomenon when it clearly exists in most countries in various forms.

When I first introduced my boyfriend to them, he happened to be wearing a cap (we'd been swimming in the sea and his hair was a mess) which, because he didn't remove it on entering their house, was commented on for months afterwards (and I quote "but it's just so disrespectful in my house"). I fleetingly did think about asking him to remove it before we went in but thought how mad that would sound but yup - true to form - my parents found it an affront to their hospitality

@MidLifeResurgence74, but that sounds classically lower-middle-class, and certainly not UC in any way...?