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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think there is nowhere women can feel truly safe

154 replies

30whatacrock · 28/11/2021 08:53

Reported in the news today is a woman who was sexually assaulted as a child and raped as an adult by males. She has been accessing group support to help her deal with her trauma.

In walks a male in male clothing who identified as being female. This person didn’t say anything or join in with any discussion but just sat there. The woman, who was upset at this, explained to the organiser how uncomfortable she felt having a male there, only to be told that he had every right and that they don’t police gender.

This is despite the group also running sessions for trans and non binary people. It just makes me wonder if there is any area that women can go, which is for females only, whether it be changing rooms, toilets, or counselling sessions.

OP posts:
MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 28/11/2021 18:55

So what women are and aren't allowed to feel, and what action they are and aren't allowed to take, depends entirely on how the male in their presence feels on the inside. The male in their presence has total control of the women's feelings.

Exactly. Angry

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/11/2021 09:32

This is appalling. Men's rights rule.

Fleek · 29/11/2021 09:59

Any one posting here could be Sarah at some point in the future. If you've never had to access this type of service before, I'm sure it could be easy to sit there and think 'poor her' and then get on with your day. But you have no idea about whether one day you might be in the same position (or another woman close to you). To be in such a vulnerable position and to be brave enough to ask for help and then be told essentially, no, you aren't welcome here. The fact you don't want men in the group while you open up about some of your most painful, difficult, frightening experiences makes them feel sad and unsafe and and we care more about that than we do about you. It's horrific. It makes me so so angry.

Sarah has been so incredibly brave speaking up and opening peoples' eyes to what is going on. Just by doing so she is going to be on the receiving end of some disgusting abuse online.

PumpkinGin · 29/11/2021 11:25

I am just so confused about this…

My understanding is that

a) there was a women only counselling group for victims of sexual abuse and violence?

b) a biological male turns up, dressed as a male and acting like a male?

c) this person shared nothing about own sexual abuse suffered and only sat in silence looking at the women (creepy AF)?

b) any female rape victim who felt unsafe in the presence of someone who looked and acted clearly male was asked to leave and got no further support?

Can this really have happened?

How did they know that this person was a transwoman and not an abuser who got off on listening to stories about sexual violence???

WhenSepEnds · 29/11/2021 11:36

[quote Waitwhat23]@WhenSepEnds we're living in a time when women on 'single sex' hospital wards are being told that it is single sex, even when it's not and a rape survivor who requested a female examiner to carry out her mammogram had her letter passed around a Hospital Trust as an example of 'transphobia'. The Scottish Government had a heated debate over whether rape survivors should be allowed to request a female examiner with quite a few elected representatives saying no, they shouldn't.

There's so, so many more examples.[/quote]
My god can't believe things are this bad

FOJN · 29/11/2021 11:43

My god can't believe things are this bad

It's actually worse than most people think.

www.womenarehuman.com/

YouSetTheTone · 29/11/2021 11:44

It’s utterly outrageous, and it makes me sick to the core that this brave woman and others are being excluded from access to rape counselling because they wish to have a woman-only space to recover from their trauma.

The misogyny in rape crisis centres has seemingly set in deep - you only have to witness the fact that the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre is a trans identified man, who believes that women should ‘re-frame their trauma’ if they want a woman-only space. This person is still in their role despite publicly stating these views, and was appointed despite the fact it was advertised as a role for a woman.

Women deserve to be treated with empathy. Why do we have to fight so damn hard for this?

Shehasadiamondinthesky · 29/11/2021 13:18

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

Whilst you make a good point *@Shehasadiamondinthesky*, you have the terminology muddled up: Men do whatever they want, women or transgender women do whatever they are told.

Trans women is born male, transition to female.
Trans man is born female transition to male.

It's not your fault, it's very misleading language and partly that is why this kind of thing is allowed as most people will read 6ft transwoman and think it's a tall, gender non conforming woman and so apply their common sense to a different scenario than the reality.

Didn't I put that? I must have been typing whilst tired which is never a good idea. Apologies.
AngeloMysterioso · 29/11/2021 14:23

a rape survivor who requested a female examiner to carry out her mammogram had her letter passed around a Hospital Trust as an example of 'transphobia'.

Also in Brighton, funnily enough.

WorriedMumsDontSleep · 29/11/2021 14:26

It was a good mistake as most people in aibu won't be familiar with the terminology.

Sn0tnose · 29/11/2021 14:34

This is an excerpt of an article from the Herald Scotland. I’m not familiar with the newspaper so if it’s one that is considered to be an absolute rag, please feel free to google for another source if you feel that comments may have been misquoted or taken out of context.

‘THE head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices.

Wadhwa also told The Guilty Feminist podcast that rape survivors could “reframe” their trauma and have “a more positive relationship with it”.

Well there we go women. We just need to reframe our trauma and remember it’s not about healing us. It’s about validating others.

Artichokeleaves · 29/11/2021 14:56

@Sn0tnose

This is an excerpt of an article from the Herald Scotland. I’m not familiar with the newspaper so if it’s one that is considered to be an absolute rag, please feel free to google for another source if you feel that comments may have been misquoted or taken out of context.

‘THE head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices.

Wadhwa also told The Guilty Feminist podcast that rape survivors could “reframe” their trauma and have “a more positive relationship with it”.

Well there we go women. We just need to reframe our trauma and remember it’s not about healing us. It’s about validating others.

The most important thing in treating female trauma is how males feel about it and what they need out of it, and to ensure that females are properly obedient to male centric politics.

Just................ what is the matter with these people?

beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 16:21

@PumpkinGin

I am just so confused about this…

My understanding is that

a) there was a women only counselling group for victims of sexual abuse and violence?

b) a biological male turns up, dressed as a male and acting like a male?

c) this person shared nothing about own sexual abuse suffered and only sat in silence looking at the women (creepy AF)?

b) any female rape victim who felt unsafe in the presence of someone who looked and acted clearly male was asked to leave and got no further support?

Can this really have happened?

How did they know that this person was a transwoman and not an abuser who got off on listening to stories about sexual violence???

Your understanding is spot on. That's exactly what happened.
catzwhiskas · 29/11/2021 16:25

Glad to see this has stayed in AIBU. But it is always the same ratio in the polls around this topic, with no one prepared to come on and tell us why males of any kind should be welcomed into provisions for women or girls. As others have said actual important single sex places are disappearing due to the naivity that does not recognize the real dangers that men present ,however they dress or identify. It is deeply shocking that males are also running some of what were originally ,services for women, and dictating how our views and feelings are not valid. Yes we will be having to provide informal private space in women’s homes to ensure privacy and safety. Yes they will be infiltrated , but this is how we have managed before the years of funding. We can do it again. I am furious on behalf of “Sarah” .we must speak out as she has done so bravely.

johnd2 · 29/11/2021 16:30

My opinion is that the only true safe space is one that only you can enter.
Not much use for getting support though, assuming you even have access to such a space.
Sounds like this was a space for supporting people who are struggling and it's hard to provide neat rules for who is allowed access. Clearly the rules work for one person and not another.
Maybe the trans person was lacking in empathy but maybe they didn't know her story and maybe had their own problems.
It is a shame when this happens and the answer is more and better facilities with more safe spaces so people can find the one they are comfortable with .
I hope things go well for all those involved. Take care everyone.

johnd2 · 29/11/2021 16:32

Sorry and maybe there are two issues, one whether the trans person should have felt able to use the space, and the other whether they should have been permitted to use the space, i only really covered the former

MarshmallowSwede · 29/11/2021 16:32

I read the thread and the article. It was chilling and I’m not willing to give this man who attended the meeting the benefit of the doubt.

Sexual predators get off on hearing about the trauma of rape victims. Especially considering there are meetings for trans and non binary and also men that he could have gone to.

We forget to what lengths sexual predators will go to have access tk victims. And it is not unheard of for rapists and sexual predators to enjoy hearing about the trauma of victims.

She herself said the entire incident gave off a voyeuristic vibe.

At this point it seems the only safe space a woman can have is her own home. We are no longer allowed to congregate without men.

WorriedMumsDontSleep · 29/11/2021 16:34

Trans person had the choice of two options to explore their own issues.

No need to invade the female provision and render that space unusable for people that have no other option.

Artichokeleaves · 29/11/2021 17:01

Sarah was not even asking for the woman only space to be female only, she was asking for a female only IN ADDITION as an option to the females excluded from all other options and without any help at all. While males had three separate choices to find their preferred best fit.

This was a refusal to allow Sarah and the other women who were forced out of accessing help to have any resource at all. It was no threat to a wealth of choices for trans service users. It was no skin off their nose in any way. This is dog in the manger refusing to let other people's needs be met at all because it messes with personal politics. That's it. That's all. Males dictating that they get multiple options but females get one choice of mixed sex and like it or get nothing.

Male supremacism gone mad. Indulged by a lot of very silly people who bring their politics to work, and appear to have lost track of the fact that they're a women's rape crisis service who are not providing services to women because they're too busy politicking and caring for male service users. Plot totally lost.

FOJN · 29/11/2021 17:15

How did they know that this person was a transwoman and not an abuser who got off on listening to stories about sexual violence???

Indeed, you would think they had duty to safeguard the women seeking support rather than add to their trauma and effectively exclude them for what should be a safe space but apparently sleazy Dave from next door can just turn up to these groups and we're to assume they are TW.

Waitwhat23 · 29/11/2021 17:43

@johnnd2 There are neat rules for who is allowed access. Whether or not the transwomen feels that a formerly single sex service (which by their presence they have made mixed sex) is the one they feel most comfortable in (despite the plethora of other options available) is irrelevant. The service has the ability and a legal right to provide a single sex service, using the exemptions detailed in the Equality Act 2010

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

In particular -

Example (from the exemption document).

• A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

The service has chosen not to because they value their adherence to an ideology rather than supporting women who need a single sex service and are now forced to self exclude themselves. They were simply asked to provide a single sex service in addition to the range of services (including trans specific) offered. Their refusal is simply jaw dropping.

johnd2 · 29/11/2021 19:25

@Waitwhat23 thanks that's helpful to have a legal reference, in which case legal action may ultimately be the best way to force them to comply with their obligations. I thought it was a symptom of a lack of services that the trans person felt they had to use the service in question.
Take care.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 30/11/2021 09:37

@johnd2

My opinion is that the only true safe space is one that only you can enter. Not much use for getting support though, assuming you even have access to such a space. Sounds like this was a space for supporting people who are struggling and it's hard to provide neat rules for who is allowed access. Clearly the rules work for one person and not another. Maybe the trans person was lacking in empathy but maybe they didn't know her story and maybe had their own problems. It is a shame when this happens and the answer is more and better facilities with more safe spaces so people can find the one they are comfortable with . I hope things go well for all those involved. Take care everyone.
OK.

Safe space being one you can enter.

A service runs a number of groups, like this one does.

A womens group

A mens group

Am ostensibly mixed sex group for trans/non binary individuals

Which one does a trans identified male go to?

Well, if he has been traumtatised and needs support he would probably want to go to a group that was set up to give him the support he needed, had infomration and connections he needed. So the trans/non binary group would be the best fit for him

What would it mean for him to choose the womens group? Well, he'd have to be self centred enough not to care about the traumatised women in there. He would be intentionally depriving a room full of traumatised women a safe space, knowing that there were 2 other groups that would accept him.

You say it's a shame. Caused by a lack of empathy. I say it's a deliberate act of self validation.

More and better facilities you say? I help fund raising for a refuge. I have seen our funding cut by about 40% because we run female led services. Groups set up and run by women, for women, Groups that for over a decade self funded because they didn't meet criteria for any significant Lottery funding. Then, after getting big enough and wise enough to run the service in a way the Lottery could fund we got told that we were not diverse enough and had our funding cut.

By diverse they specifically meant, confirmed in numerous missives, that this single sex service did not accommodate men.

There is no other refuge within 20 miles. It too is a small independent and is in precisely the same situation we are.

We had neat rules Any woman who needed us. Any woman and her kids under a specific age. Any woman and kids over that age. ALL had a place to come to. Those rules worked for ALL women and ALL of their kids.

Now, in order to continue to exist we MUST allow men into our services. Why?

Men, trans or other, could do as women have done, Set up their own centres. But no, they see what women have set up and have chosen to take it. Why?

So now we have had to set aside space, time, funding for a mixed sex group. and differently accessed sleeping spaces. About 80+% of the time it is attended by women only but when we do get a trans individual, male or female, come to us that is the group they go to. It has cost a fortune to set up, to write up the new Values etc, new funding streams. new spaces, new staff, new training, so many new things.

And who pays for all of that? Well, the womens space does. Traumatised women do. The women who support the group in finances, time and expertise do.

That is the reality for any group that chooses to remain single sex. We, luckily, have had nobody complaining about our service, but if/when we do I anticipate it to be from a trans identified male wanting to join the womens groups and living accommodation. Which is why we are currently looking at how to protect the service from this. How to rebuff such demand without losing our legal footing and funding streams. One such complaint could completely destroy us UNLESS we chose to do as that Brighton based servcie did and allow self ID. Which we won't!

So it isn't hypothetical for some. It is real, fairly imminent, and this story has made it more so, as I can only imagine that one of these days a headline like that will be the impetus for our being challenged!

ClaudiaJ1 · 30/11/2021 09:42

Can women hold a protest outside of the centre?

Waitwhat23 · 30/11/2021 10:56

I don't think it would be a good idea as it might intimidate the users of the service. Sarah has indicated on another thread that she doesn't think that's the way to go and that requesting that the service uses the exemptions they are permitted to use under the Equality Act would produce the best result. This could also be replicated nationally to ensure that services across the country meet the needs of their service users.