AIBU to think there is nowhere women can feel truly safe

[30whatacrock]

Reported in the news today is a woman who was sexually assaulted as a child and raped as an adult by males. She has been accessing group support to help her deal with her trauma.

In walks a male in male clothing who identified as being female. This person didn’t say anything or join in with any discussion but just sat there. The woman, who was upset at this, explained to the organiser how uncomfortable she felt having a male there, only to be told that he had every right and that they don’t police gender.

This is despite the group also running sessions for trans and non binary people. It just makes me wonder if there is any area that women can go, which is for females only, whether it be changing rooms, toilets, or counselling sessions.

What can we do? Well the law is on the side of single sex spaces where needed, so write to the senior managers / trustees / governors of the organisation, pointing out that their staff are misinterpreting the law and excluding clients / constituents / council tax payers etc from accessing essential services.

I hate this shit so much. It’s crazy that women’s rights have been destroyed by the entitled demands of men who declare they’re women. The ugly irrational lie of it that we are supposed to bow down to lest we get labelled bigots or lose our jobs.

I’m so fucking angry.

Also was it a natural man or a woman who was trans into a man?

The article is very clear it was a man who made no attempt to change his appearance.

This so so confusing. I really feel for that poor woman. Sexual abuse is awful. And child abusers are the lowest of the low.

What I don’t understand is why they can’t have a group for only biological women. I have been trying to read up on this and it appears so many women are ok with transwomen in women’s space which is really inclusive.

But why can’t one group be transwomen and biological women mixed, one transwomen only and one biological women only? Wouldn’t that make the most sense?

This is the pits.

I feel very sorry for Sarah.
WTF are the charity thinking? The rationale doesn’t stand up.

@TarasCrazyTiara there are various different groups run by the service but the women's group (despite the exemptions allowed the Equality Act) is now mixed sex because it is for anyone who 'identifies as a woman'.

The person accessing the women's service was male. That's why Sarah cannot now access the service.

Even the head of Stonewall said in her Women's Hour interview that female people should have specific support. Obviously it's important that trans ppl have access to their own services.

The CEO of Stonewall's exact words in relation to women wanting single sex refuges that do not accommodate trans women:

'Whatever we think about that, whether we think it's justified or unjustified, she should get support. Everybody who needs support should have that support and feel safe getting it.'

Real transwomen want to pass they don't show up as a man

What does showing up as a man mean? Do transwomen need to wear women's clothes in order to show up as a woman? Is that the magical difference between men and transwomen? And the one thing that makes transwomen real women?

Anyway, born males should never be in women's survivor support groups. Regardless of what they're wearing.

Real transwomen want to pass they don't show up as a man

We're long past this thinking. Some, yes, of course. For others it's their gender which is "woman" and gender shouldn't affect what sort of clothes you choose to wear, hairstyles etc.
It's now simply the declaration that you are a woman that makes you a woman.

Also, we need to stop focusing our attention on the man (his appearance, internal identity, intention etc). It's a red herring.

The fact you are focusing on the man is how this works. You have been socialised, as women, to focus your attention on men's wishes and feelings.

The important people here are the woman who required the service and the service provider. Focus on her needs, their provision of services that meet her needs.

Ugh. Horrific. A man, however he chooses to define his gender, being given carte blanche to commit an act of abuse upon a group of vulnerable women by sitting in full view with his ears waggling while they talk about their personal experience of rape. And those women being expected to believe that he is just like them because that's what he claims to want. Gives me the shudders.

The important people here are the woman who required the service and the service provider. Focus on her needs, their provision of services that meet her needs.

Exactly

@lottiegarbanzo

Also, we need to stop focusing our attention on the man (his appearance, internal identity, intention etc). It's a red herring.

The fact you are focusing on the man is how this works. You have been socialised, as women, to focus your attention on men's wishes and feelings.

The important people here are the woman who required the service and the service provider. Focus on her needs, their provision of services that meet her needs.

Yes. This, entirely this.

@MonsignorMirth

Even the head of Stonewall said in her Women's Hour interview that female people should have specific support. Obviously it's important that trans ppl have access to their own services.

The CEO of Stonewall's exact words in relation to women wanting single sex refuges that do not accommodate trans women:

'Whatever we think about that, whether we think it's justified or unjustified, she should get support. Everybody who needs support should have that support and feel safe getting it.'

This is very true mirth.

However, this came after how many years of telling organisations completely the opposite? The SW CEO swiveled on a penny now that the general public have shown they are NOT on board with erasing words like mother and not providing single sex services for rape and abuse victims.

It will take years to undo the damage done to the policy changes within these organizations. Years to unpick it. Look at the work we are still doing just to have the words ‘wrong body’ removed from our children’s education over 12 months since the DoE stated the phrased was not to be used.

Do Women’s Aid services include men in this same way?

I have a large sum in my (and DHs) will to WA… Enabling men to intimidate users in this way is not what either of us had in mind to support! This could be very re-traumatising.

All I can find online ob the WA site is some proposed review of transgender policies from 2018…

I take anything Stonewall says with an enormous pinch of salt. Under their lobbying, the Scottish Government (as part of the highly contentious and criticised 'Diversity Champions' scheme, now being dropped by organisations in droves) has been putting into place policies which (as the University of Essex report showed) are legally incorrect and which are eroding (legal) single sex spaces. Rape Crisis Edinburgh recently stated that rape survivors may have to 'examine their prejudices' before accessing their (entirely mixed sex) services.

@lottiegarbanzo

Also, we need to stop focusing our attention on the man (his appearance, internal identity, intention etc). It's a red herring.

The fact you are focusing on the man is how this works. You have been socialised, as women, to focus your attention on men's wishes and feelings.

The important people here are the woman who required the service and the service provider. Focus on her needs, their provision of services that meet her needs.

Yes agree.

However, this does illustrate that it's actually impossible to draw up fair 'be kind' lines without the risk of someone being excluded.

Some women say all transwomen are women and should be treated as such. Issue for this sexual abuse survivor.

Some people said if they were wearing women's clothes it would be ok. But fight or flight doesn't respond to clothes it responds to biology.

Some people say surgery is their line in the sand. But is it moral to compel others to have. Invasive surgery?
The only thing that is fair is keep all males out.

Has this thread been moved back? It's showing in aibu for me. There is a thread about this in fwr, 'Sarah' (not her real name) from the article is actually posting on the thread if anyone would like to head over there and give her some support

@slowphone I would recommend Nia. They know what a woman is

niaendingviolence.org.uk/

It's surprising how few women actually know this is happening. We all know there are some men who will get off on hearing women talk about their experiences of sexual violence but to exclude anyone on the basis of sex is bigotry.

How much evidence do we need that the patriarchy is alive ,well and thriving. I wonder if the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis will chip in to tell Sarah to "reframe her trauma".

For those that don't know Vancouver Rape Crisis had its funding stopped for refusing to admit males to female support groups but that minor inconvenience only happened after a they failed to heed the warnings of dead rat nailed to their door, the entrails of another dead wild animal posted through their letter box and the building being covered in graffiti. Women know your place.

Well yes waitwhat, but you know acting ahead of policy change is SW primary tactic. So, therefore, their head has stated their way forward, we need to make sure they stick to their public statements.

Reflect their tactics back.

And if they want to twist again, so be it. They will continue to increase the rate of distrust in their organisation. The more they twist, the more they lie and misrepresent their aims and policies the quicker they will lose all credibility.

A great shame as they had such a powerful legacy. But they built an extension without having strong foundations that could ever support it.

@FOJN

It's surprising how few women actually know this is happening. We all know there are some men who will get off on hearing women talk about their experiences of sexual violence but to exclude anyone on the basis of sex is bigotry.

How much evidence do we need that the patriarchy is alive ,well and thriving. I wonder if the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis will chip in to tell Sarah to "reframe her trauma".

For those that don't know Vancouver Rape Crisis had its funding stopped for refusing to admit males to female support groups but that minor inconvenience only happened after a they failed to heed the warnings of dead rat nailed to their door, the entrails of another dead wild animal posted through their letter box and the building being covered in graffiti. Women know your place.

Jesus this is barbaric

@slowphone

Do Women’s Aid services include men in this same way?

I have a large sum in my (and DHs) will to WA… Enabling men to intimidate users in this way is not what either of us had in mind to support! This could be very re-traumatising.

All I can find online ob the WA site is some proposed review of transgender policies from 2018…

I think Women's Aid has a central organisation that oversees lots of local orgs, whose policies and situations may vary widely. But I'm not an expert. I know one or two WA groups in Scotland lost funding to 'gender neutral' services last year.

A dead rat nailed to the door of a rape centre?? That is beyond horrific, those poor women

Who would do such a thing??

@TarasCrazyTiara

Was this actually a woman’s group or a group for survivors of sexual abuse which didn’t specify sex?

Also was it a natural man or a woman who was trans into a man?

The article was really clear.

The group was one a a few. One for men. One for transgender people. One for non binary people. One for women.

Women being 'anyone who identifies as a woman'

Sarah described the man as a man, dressed like, looked like and indeed was a man.

Sarah was told that maybe this woman's group wasn't right for her. Maybe she could start one of her own.

Doubly nasty. Most refuges in existence in the UK were best up, funded by and for women. We used to get a lot if funding through local authorities and the Lottery. That is lessening now as we don't meet the criteria. We don't cater for all genders, we don't accept men in all sessions. I am not kidding. This is what I do as a volunteer. I look at funding streams, help write bids.

Locally we now have a women's group and an open group. We had to justify that!! So we write a long explanation about service users holding meetings, discussing options and making a decision based on current usage and setting up a mechanism for change based in changing needs.

We haven't yet had much if a push to make the women's group inclusive. We have a number if transwomen in the open group and one transman who chose the open group.

We have been lucky.

We are not Brighton.

But many other refuges are becoming much more inclusive... it is invidious. It will challenge many women's services for years to come. Mostly because we will have to find new funding streams, new housing, a new level of safety - most if ours comes from being affiliated with the local authority. If they throw us out we will have to do all of that, pay for the assessments, building modifications, IT hard and software etc ourselves.

It will have a huge impact on a service that has existed for over 30 years and is needed no more than ever.