I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

How well are native English speakers tolerated in Welsh speaking parts of Wales?
I think we hear so many different languages spoken in towns here that it barely registers anymore. In some places English is hardly heard. Is Wales the same?

@Onemorebaby

How well are native English speakers tolerated in Welsh speaking parts of Wales? I think we hear so many different languages spoken in towns here that it barely registers anymore. In some places English is hardly heard. Is Wales the same?

I can’t go fudge sugar

I think the majority of the posts on this thread show you exactly how non English speakers are treated and it's not good. How eye opening.

@november90

If you'd ended then conversation to the point of talking in a different language then why are you even bothered about how he reacted? A few people have suggested he might have felt excluded etc and your reaction is defence... so you don't ca re about his feelings so why should he care about yours? Op I don't think you are unreasonable for speaking Welsh, I think there's literally nothing wrong with this. But that man might have acted like that for a number of different reasons and if you're not open to hearing them or understanding them then best just let it go.

She. Never. Had. A. Conversation. With. Him.

Why don’t people read anymore?!

@alicesfavouritepen

I think the majority of the posts on this thread show you exactly how non English speakers are treated and it's not good. How eye opening.

💯 agree

@TheOriginalEmu

The anti-welshness of mumsnet is alive and well.

It's nothing compared to the anti English on this post and several others. But hey, freedom of speech and all that......

It sounds like the OP had a chat with the conductor and the man joined in though she never spoke to him directly. Some people seem to think that because he joined in the conversation with the conductor he was entitled to keep chatting to OP and her friend and it was rude of OP to prevent this by speaking Welsh (as she normally would) to her friend. And it sounds like the man took it personally when no personal slight was intended. Not everyone wants to chat to strangers on trains.

@TrishM80

English people don't even like "foreigners talking foreign" in their native countries, let alone in England!

Really? How did you arrive at this little gem of information.

OP, I wish I could say I was surprised at the tenor of a lot of the replies here, but I'm not. I'm a native English speaker so therefore have no experience of what it's like to be speaking another language in the country in which I live, but as others have said, this thread is both eye-opening and quite depressing.

My take on this is (because I've encountered my fair share of letchy men on trains who gravitate towards young women travelling in adjacent seats) that the 'Stranger Man' sitting opposite fancied you/your friend, or anyway was appreciating the view, and when you switched (back) to Welsh this in some way scuppered the little story he was telling himself in his head about you. Obviously I have no supporting evidence whatsoever for this theory and will be grilled for man-hating forthwith, but that's my theory.

And of course it's not BU to revert to the language you and another find the most natural/comfortable, in front of complete strangers!! If you'd been having a three-way conversation then I agree that would be considered a bit rude, or at least a fairly pointed 'we don't want to talk to you any longer' message (which could in itself be quite a handy tool to deploy!). But as you've said many times, you weren't actually talking to the guy opposite. And I totally get what you're saying about how his body language emanated 'hostility' or negativity, even if you can't put into words exactly how this happened. We have good gut instincts for body language and it gets us out of trouble if we listen to them.

That’s a bit of sweeping generalisation. Why would the Welsh be anti-British? We’re just as British as anyone else.

More so, in fact. Welsh has evolved from the language spoken by the British (south of the Scottish Central Belt, anyway) before the Roman invasion. Unlike English which was imported by invaders from modern-day Germany and Denmark, with a little Norman French thrown in afterwards.

@DdraigGoch

That’s a bit of sweeping generalisation. Why would the Welsh be anti-British? We’re just as British as anyone else.

More so, in fact. Welsh has evolved from the language spoken by the British (south of the Scottish Central Belt, anyway) before the Roman invasion. Unlike English which was imported by invaders from modern-day Germany and Denmark, with a little Norman French thrown in afterwards.

Yes. Cumbria and Cymru- not a coincidence they are so similar.

OP - I think that the chap would have reacted in the same way whatever language you were speaking. I don't think that it was a specific issue with Welsh.

Welsh is in an unusual situation culturally because it is widely but not universally spoken and most native speakers are also proficient, if not fluent, in English as well.

@NeverBeenNormal yep just straight forward xenophobia and having an issue with what look like potential foreigners.

@Evesgarden

I really hate the narrative that England is an awful Country with awful people. It really isn't. Thats why people are risking life and death to by pass France to get here. We are a very diverse and hospitable country.

Its actually a great country with great people.

I have family in Wales (Welshpool) and the anti British sentiment is strong there. They have lived there over 25 years and still get ignored/short shrift in pubs ect. but I don't class the whole of Wales as a hostile place. Wales is a beautiful place with lovely people.

What are your family doing to provoke 'short shrift' @Evesgarden? Or are they peculiarly sensitive & looking for slights?

Because I lived nearby Welshpool for 8 years, & never experienced a single incident of "anti British sentiment". Very far from it - the community is broadly mixed between Welsh & English nationals, with many welsh/anglo mixed families.

If your family are getting ignored in pubs, they are giving off some weird vibe - believe me, I've been in every pub in W'pool as a matter of principle

Many Welsh folk also feel British - just observe the welsh & union flags flying in proximity in gardens & at celebrations. Maybe if you let your family know that small fact (which they really ought to have absorbed by now after 25 years) they can feel less prone to seeking out something which genuinely barely exists in most of mid-Wales.

However when speaking with family I’d never ever just switch from English to French in front of someone I was just speaking English to. It’s just rude. I think this might be your social faux pas here.

Ouch, @PrincessAnnaOfArundale
And I think your social faux pas is in managing to reach page 36 of the thread without cottoning on that OP did no such thing. Despite it being pointed out on almost every page, as PP apply their own invented narrative to justify a good old AIBU scolding It's just rude innit Princess.
CANCEL THE CHEQUE!
Neither OP or her friend spoke to Random Train Man.

@PrincessAnnaOfArundale

And yes I think maybe there is a feeling that if you can speak English then you should... same as in any country. I’d never return to Belgium and switch to English in front of a French speaker. You just don’t do that.

christ-on-a-bike here we go again

What do you do when you are in front of a French speaker AND an English speaker in Belgium, Princess?

It must give you a Sheldon Cooper-worthy logic loop meltdown!

There are dick heads every where. Anti British sentiment is rife inWales OP - dont deny it ( ive witlessness it) Yet we dont see thread aghast at it in MN....

@Evesgarden you may be wrong about a couple of things, but you have just won the MN prize for Best Typo Of Entire Thread.

Congratulations!

I remember being in Wales on holiday when the kids were very little and they had a hour's lead rein ride. The girls that worked at the yard spoke perfect English to us initially - were pleasant enough personally but the entire hour whilst they were leading the kids on their ride, they chatted to each other in Welsh completely throwing us a blank unless we specifically spoke to them.

Aww come on @PinniGig that's not to do with language preference, it's to do with lead rein work being the most-dreaded job for yard girls in riding stables everywhere, & girls/very young women being totally disinterested in engaging outside the fascination of their own social grouping & shared interests.

If they'd been speaking english, they'd still have been completely uninterested in you, no matter how lovely your family is!

Yes. Cumbria and Cymru- not a coincidence they are so similar.

@CounsellorTroi not forgetting Kernow, 'Cornwall' is a portmanteau of 'Kernow' and 'wælisċ' which was the Anglo-Saxon word for 'romanised Celt' (see also: 'Wallasey').

Cymraeg, Cumbric and Kernewek were the last outposts of the Brythonic language in Great Britain. Cumbric became extinct in the 12th Century, Kernewek in the 18th, but Cymraeg survives.

Settlers in north west France brought the language there as 'Breton' (hence why the region is now known as 'Brittany'), though it didn't survive in areas of northern Spain and only a few place names survive. In days gone by, onion growers used to sail across from France and cycle around Britain selling their wares (hence why the British have a stereotype of Frenchmen cycling around with onions draped around their shoulders, these were the only Frenchmen you would meet before international travel became common). In one town in the Midlands, it was a Welshman who would talk to them because the Welsh and Breton languages are so similar.

Oh DdraigGoch don't tell the Cornish Nats that Cornish is extinct! They'll hunt you down. They insist it's a living language because a few of them meet in pubs to try and resurrect it.

Knowing a little of both languages, the similarities are interesting but they're not mutually intelligible and they look very different. Cornish is awash with Ks for example.

@FiHefyd, Your post in Welsh said what I said not what you said.

'in Chester' is 'yng Nghaer' not 'yn Gaer'.

Your version doesn't mutate the C properly, so effectively you were saying 'in Fortress'.

If you said 'Roeddwn yn Gaer heddiw' I'd hear that as 'I was a fortress today'.

Don't get me started on those who say 'Mae o ddim....'

Is there a Welsh thread in Pedants' Corner?

Had this in Wales a few times when I've spoken with an English accent, the mood towards me has changed instantly.

@HesterShaw1 I know a few who speak Cornish, they definitely will hunt you down and kill you dreckly (after their pint).

I used to live in a border area, and would hear Welsh spoken occasionally. It may well be that he was trying to figure out what language it actually was, which could account for his expression.
It's quite a harsh sounding language and quite guttural. Reminds me a bit of some of the scandi languages. I bet that's all it was.

@Goglais Mae gen i radd uwch yn y Gymraeg, dydw i ddim angen darlith ar ramadeg y Gymraeg. Fforwm gyfeillgar, anffurfiol ydi hwn, does dim angen beirniadu safon iaith cyfranwr arall. Petawn i'n ysgrifennu llythyr ffurfiol fe fyddwn wedi defnyddio'r ffurf safonol.

Language pedants are all around us, in all languages. Speakers of minority languages need support and not criticism.