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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

999 replies

Builtthiscityonsausagerolls · 25/11/2021 21:29

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

OP posts:
ChargingBuck · 27/11/2021 11:08

Erm no. Person said we are ALL hateful xenophobes in England - they said ALL - they didn't specify which particular geographic area, language speakers, genders, nationality - JUST ALL. So I ask again? Are ALL people in England xenophobes or just the English ? If it's the ok latter where's your evidence? You said all so you must know us all very well.

You missed the point again, @Allycott, which was nowt to do with whether the English are xenophobes, & everything to do with your conflation of English people with British people.

You seem to think there are 60m English people living in England ... damn near the entire populations of the British Isles ... a common Anglo-centric confusion, forgivable from people who don't live here, but horribly revealing of mindset & assumptions when it comes from people who do ...

If you still don't get it, please don't bother to @ me again, as my patience has worn thin & I don't want waste your time or upset you with concepts you may be incapable of assimilating.

Pumperthepumper · 27/11/2021 11:08

@Harmonypuss

My son lives in a shared house (of 11 people) in Hull and until recently 2 other residents were Welsh. I will add that these 2 people did not know each other before moving into this house, so there's no pre- existing friendship here. Regularly, any number of them would be chatting away in English (in the house or the pub) and suddenly the 2 Welsh speakers would break off and chat in Welsh (sometimes laughing) whilst still looking at their other housemates, then after a minute or 10, they'd switch back to English and include everyone else in the conversation. My son tells of this happening when he's been out for a drink with just one of them and the other has come along, butted into their conversation and they've then ignored him chuntering on in Welsh. It's rude and clearly gives off an air of "we don't want you to know what we're talking about and yes, we probably are talking (and laughing) about you but you'll never know for sure, ha ha". It's horribly being that person who's effectively being snubbed. I think it might be a bit different if people are already talking in their native tongue and stop for a couple of minutes to include someone who doesn't speak it, then when that person walks away, to continue in their native language, I don't think that's rude.
Why would they be talking about him and laughing at him, but still meeting him for drinks and being friendly in English?
coffeecats · 27/11/2021 11:36

By “take responsibility” for Wales’ voting record, ChargingBuck, I obviously mean look at the underlying sentiments in your own society - ugly or uncomfortable though that may be - before you start pointing the finger over the border and indulging in the whole nonsensical blaming mentality.

When does someone ‘become Welsh’ out of interest? A year? One generation? Multiple generations since the year dot? What you are saying doesn’t even make sense. Millions of English have Welsh ancestry or relatives and vice versa. What even is Welsh and what is English?

People voted Brexit in Wales for the same reason people voted Brexit in England. There are communities that have suffered years of deprivation and feel left behind - or out of the loop. They feel there are no opportunities for them so when they hear -“Take back control” it resonates. They figure anything would be better than the present state of affairs.

I live in a part of London where 75% voted Remain. This is faulty typical. Not surprising, as it’s a wealthy prosperous, multicultural area and people are what you could call the “winners” of globalisation and free trade / open borders etc. In fact, don’t actually know anyone who voted Brexit. Yet it happened, sadly. But it’s no use me just pointing the finger at regions with a high Brexit vote - eg Boston in Lincolnshire - and blaming them. We are part of the same society - and as in all societies, there are “winners” and “losers.” People in prosperous London and south-east England can’t fully relate to the sentiment in deprived ex-industrial areas, such as parts of Northern England or yes, Wales. I have studied regional variations in the Brexit vote and those with the highest Brexit vote are regions with the highest levels if inter-generational deprivation. This is why significant areas of Wales voted Brexit - along with the former “Red Wall” constituencies. It’s no good blaming them and “othering” them though. You have to look at all facets within your own society - even ‘incomers’ or those with polarised views to your own - and accept that their voice is as valid as yours. That applies to all regions and all demographics - whether they can trace their ancestry back to the Doomsday Book, or have been here 20 years (like me) or were just granted asylum yesterday.

It a ridiculous and quite frankly, childish to blame “the English” for Welsh Brexit vote. Who are “the English” anyway? Would you count me as English (I emigrated to London from overseas 20 years ago)? Would my Arabic-speaking husband be English in your book? What about one of the millions of people born in England to one (or two) Welsh parents? What are they then?

People have been freely living and working across the border for thousands of years. Funny how just as many if not more “English” people live in Scotland - yet Scotland still voted Remain overall. As I say, look closely at your own society.

Most “English” who move to Wales probably have some sort of connection to Wales. Or they are Welsh-born, but have been living in London for work and moving back - perhaps with a family to be close to relatives etc. Regardless, the English are a very mixed bunch and I doubt there’s many “English” families that have no Welsh or Scottish connections or ancestry Ther U.K. is a small country!

ChargingBuck · 27/11/2021 11:37

[quote FiHefyd]If anyone's interested in reading about the research done into Brexit votes in Wales, this article is a good place to start.
discoversociety.org/2021/06/08/what-about-wales-brexit-and-the-future-of-the-uk/[/quote]
Os gwelwch yn dda @FiHefyd

Although, according to a PP hellbent on dissing anything I write in defence of Welsh speakers, who cares? get over it!, I'm sure there are dozens of PP who will find your link fascinating.

EvenRosesHaveThorns · 27/11/2021 11:44

OP, as a white British person, you now believe you know what it's like to experience 'xenophobia/racism' in England because a man stared at you on a train. This is such a mind-boggling claim, extrapolated to an insulating degree on so many levels

Jacketpotato84 · 27/11/2021 11:47

Sendingsomas sums it up quite nicely.
I'm another one who reckon op was doing a study on xenophobia or something or even on psychological/behaviour and us posting on mumsnet have wrote it for her.
We've been given little information and made our own assumptions on the events based on our own individual judgements and experiences.
Interesting

WrongWayApricot · 27/11/2021 11:48

@ChargingBuck she just rounded up 🙄 England is 56m GB is 65m and UK is 67m.

ChargingBuck · 27/11/2021 11:51

The thing is though, you can’t be sure it did. You’ve decided that’s what happened but how can you know for sure that they hate the English so much that the very second one rocks up (despite only 20% of their own population speaking Welsh!) they immediately close ranks. Why would they?

@Pumperthepumper I've really enjoyed your contributions to OP's thread, & silently applauded many of then, but seriously - it's time to believe @madisonbridges.
She clearly a measured & articulate poster who isn't coming from a position of ignorant assumption or seeking confirmation bias for her experience.

Madison hasn't once said that "they" close ranks.
She described a situation where one shopkeeper was rude.
It happens.
It happens in Wales, in England, in Outer Mongolia - it is human nature.

Although, for the less reasonable posters who lack Madison's clarity of thought processes, let's get back to this stale old trope.

When someone tells you their story of how they walked into a Welsh pub & everyone ... etc etc ... they are telling a story about that one pub. It's interesting how self-selecting this appears to be, in that the tale-teller never details every other pub, shop, cafe they frequented on their holiday. The visits they made there, which passed off without incident, are not recounted.
They never say "we went into 16 premises in 2 weeks, & had a great time in 15 of them!"

It's confimation bias, demonisation, & reductive, lazy thinking.

Pumperthepumper · 27/11/2021 11:54

@ChargingBuck

The thing is though, you can’t be sure it did. You’ve decided that’s what happened but how can you know for sure that they hate the English so much that the very second one rocks up (despite only 20% of their own population speaking Welsh!) they immediately close ranks. Why would they?

@Pumperthepumper I've really enjoyed your contributions to OP's thread, & silently applauded many of then, but seriously - it's time to believe @madisonbridges.
She clearly a measured & articulate poster who isn't coming from a position of ignorant assumption or seeking confirmation bias for her experience.

Madison hasn't once said that "they" close ranks.
She described a situation where one shopkeeper was rude.
It happens.
It happens in Wales, in England, in Outer Mongolia - it is human nature.

Although, for the less reasonable posters who lack Madison's clarity of thought processes, let's get back to this stale old trope.

When someone tells you their story of how they walked into a Welsh pub & everyone ... etc etc ... they are telling a story about that one pub. It's interesting how self-selecting this appears to be, in that the tale-teller never details every other pub, shop, cafe they frequented on their holiday. The visits they made there, which passed off without incident, are not recounted.
They never say "we went into 16 premises in 2 weeks, & had a great time in 15 of them!"

It's confimation bias, demonisation, & reductive, lazy thinking.

Madison said it happened several times.
coffeecats · 27/11/2021 11:55

Stop blaming immigrants ChargingBuck.

Can you really not see the hypocrisy?

coffeecats · 27/11/2021 11:57

“OP, as a white British person, you now believe you know what it's like to experience 'xenophobia/racism' in England because a man stared at you on a train. This is such a mind-boggling claim, extrapolated to an insulating degree on so many levels“

Exactly. Thankyou.

fournonblondes · 27/11/2021 11:57

I am foreign and this is the most chill country I have ever been towards foreign people. Of course there would be exceptions . I think the left narrative makes people a bit paranoid. If I were English I would be livid of how entitled people from other countries feel about the U.K.

ChargingBuck · 27/11/2021 12:10

Who said anything about "blame" @coffeecats?

Exploring the motivations for a population's voting behaviour isn't about attributing blame, it's about understanding causation.

As you should well know, given your Brexit studies, so I'm sure you'll be interested in the link a PP kindly provided upthread - discoversociety.org/2021/06/08/what-about-wales-brexit-and-the-future-of-the-uk/

Funny how just as many if not more “English” people live in Scotland - yet Scotland still voted Remain overall. As I say, look closely at your own society.

Not at all - when you realise it's more to do with how strong an "English identity" is claimed than the volume of people who used to live in England but have now hopped the border. The article explains this concept in depth. It's great for exactly what you recommend - obviously mean look at the underlying sentiments in your own society - ugly or uncomfortable though that may be so I'm sure you'll be taking your own advice & studying it with interest.

ChargingBuck · 27/11/2021 12:19

Madison said it happened several times.

Then let's believe her, @Pumperthepumper.
She was living in N Wales, reasonably integrated into the community, house shared with I think a mix of English & Welsh mates, & presumably knew when someone was deliberately being rude to her. It happens, let's not deny it because we want to debunk the old Pub Myth (which I do, but that isn't the point here! I've made a debunking point upthread about that so there's no need to repeat myself.)

I'm not interested in the zero-sum mentality of PP trying to blame-lay for which people are the more xenophobic, the English or the Welsh.
It's as reductive as a playground chant about whether boys or girls are the more stupid, & about as helpful to promoting friendly relations.

coffeecats · 27/11/2021 12:23

But what is an “English identity.” ChargingBuck? That is my point. Is my “English identity” the same as a farmer on the Welsh borders? I doubt it.

ChargingBuck · 27/11/2021 12:32

@coffeecats It's better that you explore the interesting article that delves into that very subject, than continue to goad me with misplaced taunts & demands on my time.

Could I request that you stop @'ing me, as I've made my position & sentiments clear, & am not interested in being wilfully misunderstood.

Croeso, bore da.

nannykatherine · 27/11/2021 12:36

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls

Why switch? Because I was having a chat with my friend in our native language??? Should we do it in English so that strangers on a train in Birminham don't think we're talking about them. Really Hmm
Be probably didn’t recognise it as Welsh He thought it was foreign He didn’t recognise the oldest original language of the British isles ..
CecilyP · 27/11/2021 12:47

Be probably didn’t recognise it as Welsh
He thought it was foreign
He didn’t recognise the oldest original language of the British isles ..

Seems unlikely if they were previously chatting away to the conductor in, presumably, perfect English with a Welsh accent.

I’ve just realised I’ve probably never heard anyone speak Welsh in real life but I’ve heard it on TV both spoken and sung.

coffeecats · 27/11/2021 12:51

I have read the article, thanks. I’m saying “identity” is a very nebulous thing. There is no standard “English identity” - it’s like asking how long is a piece of string. No such thing.

At the end of the day, it was a binary referendum, and the Welsh overall vote was what it was. Own it. Just as the English vote was what it was - despite far more diverse “identities” in terms of cultural and regional differences within the borders of England. I may not like it, but I have to own it because that is what happened - regardless of this “identity” or that “identity.” Where I live, practically nobody was born here, so we will have a different “English identity” perhaps to others. So, by your logic, should our “Remain” votes count for less than what you might describe as “the real English who were born here?” All the non-native Londoners who voted Remain and therefore skewed the “real English vote?” That way madness (and xenophobia) lies.

Dontevenstart · 27/11/2021 13:04

@BasiliskStare

30 years ago DH & I went into a shop and everyone switched from English to Welsh - their choice obviously - but it felt a bit strange

I would not be slightest bit threatening to you if you spoke Welsh but it can feel excluding the other way round.

If you went in to a shop, how do you know they switched?!

There shouldn’t be anything in this - you were speaking your language, and that’s that. Anyone feeling threatened/excluded by it needs to mature.

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 27/11/2021 13:37

@BasiliskStare that's basically what happened to me. And it felt very deliberate!

And I have no issue with people speaking in their own first language but when the switch is made to prove a point, it's a different story.

Ilikelegos · 27/11/2021 13:49

Some people are just intolerant there are good and bad people everywhere . I remember travelling with a friend and kids in train and we were all speaking our mother tongue and someone loudly said in train that if people don’t speak English they shouldn’t sit on English trains .

So there are all sorts of people out there . I have learnt we as humans have very good sixth sense . We meet hundreds of people and if one/ two of them give racist/xenophobic vibe then it always ends up by being true

Harmonypuss · 27/11/2021 14:11

@Pumperthepumper

Why would they be talking about him and laughing at him, but still meeting him for drinks and being friendly in English?

What I ACTUALLY said was....

clearly gives off an air of
"we don't want you to know what we're talking about and yes, we probably are talking (and laughing) about you but you'll never know for sure, ha ha".

I DIDN'T say that they WERE talking about and laughing at him, just that that's the impression one gets in this situation.

Pumperthepumper · 27/11/2021 14:19

[quote Harmonypuss]@Pumperthepumper

Why would they be talking about him and laughing at him, but still meeting him for drinks and being friendly in English?

What I ACTUALLY said was....

clearly gives off an air of
"we don't want you to know what we're talking about and yes, we probably are talking (and laughing) about you but you'll never know for sure, ha ha".

I DIDN'T say that they WERE talking about and laughing at him, just that that's the impression one gets in this situation.[/quote]
So it’s all in his head, in your opinion? Have you told him?

phishy · 27/11/2021 14:21

@fournonblondes

I am foreign and this is the most chill country I have ever been towards foreign people. Of course there would be exceptions . I think the left narrative makes people a bit paranoid. If I were English I would be livid of how entitled people from other countries feel about the U.K.
What are you on about? Who is entitled?
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