I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

[quote EerieSilence]@WhatATimeToBeAlive
"Maybe you've experienced what it's like for English speaking people who go to Wales, when the language suddenly changes from English to Welsh when English speakers are around."

Unless you are in a close group, where it's really rude, are you seriously expecting the Welsh speakers to speak English only because there's an only English speaking person in the vicinity? Is that you being real?
Would you expect to be in Spain and people switching to English from Spanish just because you don't understand them, even though they're not talking to you? Why speak a foreign language if they can speak their mother tongue?[/quote]
@EerieSilence i have experienced many time exactly as said above, you walk into say a shop or pub and they are talking english, right to the point where you have to speak to someone and then they know your an english native speaker, to which they then speak in welsh! i find that incredably rude and warned my husband the first time we went to north wales many years back, he didnt believe me at first until he experienced it for himself

@Nimchinge

Thats really rude. I'm tri lingual and would never switch languages like that, unless I prefaced it by explaining to the non speaker that I needed to switch quickly for a specific reason. Its alienating and makes other people feel like an idiot. You were being a dick

This is hilarious! You would speak to a train conductor, in front of a stranger, in English, then before carrying on a conversation with your friend in your own language, you would explain to the stranger that you needed to switch languages? If I was the stranger I would find the announcement that you were about to switch languages very bizarre! I cannot believe anyone finds this rude. From the OP, the image I had in my mind was that the conductor arrives, OP and friend chat to him in English, stranger is friendly. Conductor leaves, OP and friend go back to chatting to each other in Welsh, stranger seems suddenly hostile. Nothing in this scenario is rude.

You can smell the Brexit.

Oh yes indeedy.

And also the future former-UK.

@coffeecats

“The “exuding Englishness” is the only part of these stories I believe. You can smell the Brexit.”

WALES VOTED BREXIT!

Did you miss that?

Nope @coffeecats, but you obvs. missed the 2 separate posts by PP explaining that the Welsh pro-Brexit vote was swung by the large influx of Anglos to Wales, whose voting preferences tipped the balance.

You may also have missed the fact that our political spectrum includes a party actively campaigning to rejoin the EU.

i have experienced many time exactly as said above, you walk into say a shop or pub and they are talking english, right to the point where you have to speak to someone and then they know your an english native speaker, to which they then speak in welsh! i find that incredably rude and warned my husband the first time we went to north wales many years back, he didnt believe me at first until he experienced it for himself

Who were they talking English to? And you say ‘say a shop or a pub’ which is it? Every shop and pub you went into in North Wales? And your husband can verify this very unlikely tale?

Proving my earlier point that some monoglots simply can't comprehend that minority languages are first languages for some people. They're not a language you learn on the side, like doing a bit of French at school. They're the language you've been hearing since your parents first brought you home from the hospital.

So Spanish kids can speak Spanish but Welsh kids can't speak Welsh?

That's the definition of oppression. Deeming some languages more 'superior' or worthy than others.

I’ve been asked to leave a pub in deepest North Wales because I wasn’t speaking in Welsh. It was properly hostile! I think that sadly you get ignorant people everywhere.

@LittleDandelionClock

Oh and yeah, it was rude (IMO) to switch to Welsh just like that, when you started off speaking English . Why switch?

Errr because she is Welsh and her friend is Welsh, so after speaking English to the conductor she naturally reverted back to her own language.

Imagine this- you are English and in a restaurant in Spain with your English family, fortunately you and your family all speak Spanish well. You place your order in Spanish after which you then spend the evening speaking to your family in their first language.

“Nope @coffeecats, but you obvs. missed the 2 separate posts by PP explaining that the Welsh pro-Brexit vote was swung by the large influx of Anglos to Wales, whose voting preferences tipped the balance. “

FFS. Pathetic.

Because there are absolutely no Welsh in England is there?

Imagine if England started blaming the Brexit vote on certain “immigrant” groups.

Oh that would be xenophobic wouldn’t it.

Take responsibility for Wales and all who live in it. Just like every other country does.

Wales is not just those “born in Wales.”

What a vile attitude.

Ok, ok
I'm going to blow some people's minds now.

I learned French through the medium of Welsh

!!!!!

Some people actually think I would have had to translate the Welsh into English then translate the English into French and back again the same way.

Because they can't grasp the concept of Welsh being a first language in its own right.

I know, right?

Hang on
What did the stranger on the train actually do to you?
Why are you so obsessed with him to come on mumsnet and post about the hostility you felt
Talking Welsh isn't even the issue here!

I too have experienced walking into a shop in Wales where they are talking English and once the realise you are English they switch to Welsh. We spent a lovely time in the local pub during the lunchtime no problems,, everyone was lovely returned in the evening and were set upon by the local youth - police were called etc and I was called a fucking English bastard.

I have all the time in the world for the other parts of Wales - lovely people - not too keen on parts of North Wales.

There is no reason to switch languages- .so if i was sat there and some decided to ensure i couldnt listen in by speaking welsh (lets face it, its like gaelic in scotland) i would be paranoid very different to a couple of spanish kids on a school trip as english is first language in the UK

@theremustonlybeone, I suspect your problem here is that you consider use of the Celtic languages of the UK to be a subversive act.

I'm in the Midlands and have switched from English to German on the train and bus. And spoken German multiple times on the phone in public. No one batts an eye. The most I get is an "oh didn't expect that" look because my English sounds very English and my German very German 😄

@coffeecats

“Nope *@coffeecats*, but you obvs. missed the 2 separate posts by PP explaining that the Welsh pro-Brexit vote was swung by the large influx of Anglos to Wales, whose voting preferences tipped the balance. “

FFS. Pathetic.

Because there are absolutely no Welsh in England is there?

Imagine if England started blaming the Brexit vote on certain “immigrant” groups.

Oh that would be xenophobic wouldn’t it.

Take responsibility for Wales and all who live in it. Just like every other country does.

Wales is not just those “born in Wales.”

What a vile attitude.

It's not my opinion or "attitude" @coffeecats.

It's documented fact, recorded by ONS & expounded upon in several learned articles.

And thanks for your well-meaning advice, but I know that Wales isn't just for those "born in Wales", as I emigrated here myself 20 years ago.

I am Welsh, born and bred, and I find it very rude when people start talking Welsh amongst English speakers. Why did you feel the need to ? , after all you were in an English speaking place, talking to an English speaking man. He probally felt very excluded and awkward.

‘Hang on
What did the stranger on the train actually do to you?’

30 pages in and still no idea Jacketpotato.

@Jacketpotato84

Hang on What did the stranger on the train actually do to you? Why are you so obsessed with him to come on mumsnet and post about the hostility you felt Talking Welsh isn't even the issue here!

Why are you so 'obsessed' that you are posting on a thread started by a soi-disant obsessive, @Jacketpotato84?

& I think OP already knows talking Welsh isn't the issue.
The issue is a certain type of Englander objecting to it.

@JennyWren87

I'm in the Midlands and have switched from English to German on the train and bus. And spoken German multiple times on the phone in public. No one batts an eye. The most I get is an "oh didn't expect that" look because my English sounds very English and my German very German 😄

Well done for being one of the very few to answer the OPs original question

@Fluff3

I am Welsh, born and bred, and I find it very rude when people start talking Welsh amongst English speakers. Why did you feel the need to ? , after all you were in an English speaking place, talking to an English speaking man. He probally felt very excluded and awkward.

Please rtfft

@Fluff3

I am Welsh, born and bred, and I find it very rude when people start talking Welsh amongst English speakers. Why did you feel the need to ? , after all you were in an English speaking place, talking to an English speaking man. He probally felt very excluded and awkward.

Except they weren't talking to an English speaking man!

Coffeecats it was a rhetorical question.
The guy did nothing wrong he wasn't being hostile
He starred at her that's it

@coffeecats

‘Hang on What did the stranger on the train actually do to you?’

30 pages in and still no idea Jacketpotato.

He just burst into tears because he was so excluded from the OP’s conversation 😭

I know how he feels. I got the train home today and there were a group of women on their way for a night out, they were a bit merry and looked fantastic, lots of laughing and so on. And I came home to put fish fingers in the oven. I was very obviously excluded from their night out, when obviously as a stranger on the train I should have been offered a slurp of their G&T from a can.

I suspect your problem here is that you consider use of the Celtic languages of the UK to be a subversive act.

You've gotta hand it to the Taffia. Running around, upsetting the internalised bias that There Can Be Only One Ring Language ... OP is clearly hellbent on dominating Mordor through the medium of bilinguism, or summat :)

Charging buck op on a train with her friend, chatting yet seems to take more notice to the actions of a stranger and how they felt (which they can't explain) him being hostile.
*a certain kind of Englander? What does that mean!