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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

999 replies

Builtthiscityonsausagerolls · 25/11/2021 21:29

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

OP posts:
43leftfeet · 26/11/2021 17:45

@CecilyP

No, they'll speak to their family in English because it is their mother tongue and therefore easiest especially if talking about something more complicated than 'here is my train ticket'. That is exactly what the OP did. I can't for the life of me work out why some people think she was in the wrong! confused

That wasn’t the case. OP and her friend were engaging in ‘chatty conversation’ with the conductor while the guy opposite was very friendly as evidenced by his smiling. OP and her friend were perfectly free to converse in Welsh but I’m not sure what the guy was supposed to do; he probably stopped smiling because no one was saying anything amusing any more. Unless I’ve missed something, I don’t think OP has said what he did that

Yes, you've missed something. She didn't say he stopped smiling, she said he was hostile and had clarified that in subsequent posts.

I wonder why you're glossing over this bit? Do you feel the OP's post is an affront to the English, somehow? (This is showing your bias, if so).

CounsellorTroi · 26/11/2021 17:45

@Buttercup1954

It is considered very rude to speak in another language when you originally had a conversation in English (or any language) and then change to a different language which you know people may not understand. This is in any country. You could be saying something rude about the people. Very impolite.
🤦🏻‍♀️
Ddraigmawr · 26/11/2021 17:47

@Buttercup1954

It is considered very rude to speak in another language when you originally had a conversation in English (or any language) and then change to a different language which you know people may not understand. This is in any country. You could be saying something rude about the people. Very impolite.
For the love of god RTFFT

They had no conversation with this guy

None

Welliesandpyjamas · 26/11/2021 17:48

Welsh-speaker living in East Midlands. My sister/parents/friends visit and we speak in Welsh (naturally, because in those relationships that is what I speak with them). I don't recall sensing any weirdness/hostility from anyone before. Maybe some curiosity. I think you just came across a twat.

30whatacrock · 26/11/2021 17:50

Oh the irony given how rude the Welsh are to English people on holiday in wales.

43leftfeet · 26/11/2021 17:53

@CecilyP

Sorry, don’t think OP explained what he did that was ‘almost threatening’.
The OP has said the following about the man:

the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

It's very hard to put into words.
Body language changed, staring....it's when you pick up a very hostile attitude from a man.

The guy was being hostile, both my friend and I felt it and acknowledged it. I get that it's hard to explain, but when you're in the situation you can feel when an attitude has changed.

2 women who independently both felt extremely uncomfortable

But somehow, in your mind, you've translated that to that the guy simply stopped smiling, and you're using this to side with this random, hostile man, instead of believing the women he was hostile to.

You're bending reality to be what you want to believe instead of engaging with the OP in good faith.

Why would you do that?

ldontWanna · 26/11/2021 17:53

@Buttercup1954

It is considered very rude to speak in another language when you originally had a conversation in English (or any language) and then change to a different language which you know people may not understand. This is in any country. You could be saying something rude about the people. Very impolite.
What complete strangers?

I speak/understand a few languages but only fluent in two. Those are the ones I'll use with a friend/family even if I previously attempted to engage in conversation in a different language. No one has the right to be an audience to my conversations.

Ironically, it's considered extremely rude to listen in, interrupt or eavesdrop on someone else's conversation, but suddenly ensuring every random around can understand you is a social requirement?

justasking111 · 26/11/2021 17:53

Talking about irony, your name 😂😂

Serendipity12 · 26/11/2021 17:54

I haven’t experienced anything like this. As someone born in Wales but who moved away at secondary school age (so not able to speak Welsh any more), I have been made to feel excluded by Welsh speakers when visiting since, however. For instance, once, when talking with a Welsh speaker and asking what the name of a certain thing was in Welsh, I was deliberately lied to and given a word that I knew was wrong instead (just enough knowledge to know that, thank goodness!). So, it was the other way round for me.

CecilyP · 26/11/2021 17:54

Yes, you've missed something. She didn't say he stopped smiling, she said he was hostile and had clarified that in subsequent posts.

Presumably he was no longer smiling when he was displaying this hostility in a way that OP couldn’t quite put her finger on (unless there has been an update that I’ve missed).

DaisyStiener · 26/11/2021 17:54

Maybe you’re thinking too much about it?
He mayve been a little put out , as other have said?
I’m Scottish and don’t speak Gaelic ( wish I did) it’s lovely to hear but if I was in that situation, I’d probably think “ ah well f*ck ya ,then!” Grin

I work with people from all around the world, and even if there’s two countrymen , they’ll often switch to English. It’s mannerly. It’s the same manners I take to speak clearly and more slowly, and no slang , if I’m talking to a newer staff member who’s unfamiliar with the dialect yet!
I used to work with a lovely couple , and if they were having their lunch together , in our staff room and someone walked in, they’d switch to English.

Bananablossom · 26/11/2021 17:54

@30whatacrock

Oh the irony given how rude the Welsh are to English people on holiday in wales.
Never encountered that myself.

Maybe the problem isn't with them....

43leftfeet · 26/11/2021 17:56

@Buttercup1954

It is considered very rude to speak in another language when you originally had a conversation in English (or any language) and then change to a different language which you know people may not understand. This is in any country. You could be saying something rude about the people. Very impolite.
OK, so if you're in France, with an English friend, and you manage to have a pleasant 30 second conversation with the ticket conductor on a train, you should then stick to French for the rest of the 2 hour journey, should you, so as not to offend a dickhead man sitting opposite you who might have hurty feelings if he's excluded from your conversation, even though you're not talking to him and it's none of his fucking business and even though you find speaking in English easier?

You're telling me you do this, right?

Pigriver · 26/11/2021 17:57

I work within a workforce where it's 50/50 white British and British Pakistani. Obviously we mainly use English but the bilingual staff swap and change constantly. I've never once been offended if thought they were talking about me. It's usually to clarify something or ask about a family member or talk about cooking.
They don't automatically switch when I come in the room and I've never expect them too. I'm also not bothered if they swap languages whilst I'm in the convo. I just take it as it's not intended for me or words they they wouldn't use in English.
But then again I live and work in a very multicultural area and I'm used to it. Maybe the person you were sat near wasn't. Not saying it's right though

Stellf · 26/11/2021 18:01

They would probably react the same way to a Polish speaker, or French, …or any other language other than English really, I secretly think that’s why the yanks and English get on so well, no language barriers.
I think some people get annoyed because they can’t understand what you’re saying, or think you are talking about them. You know what people are like, they want to be able to know everything!

Dwi’n siarad Cymraeg hefyd 😁

CatNoBag · 26/11/2021 18:03

I speak Welsh in London (to other people who speak Welsh!) and it isn't an issue, but out and about there's a 50/50 chance the snippets of conversation I hear will be in English or another language. I'm not sure I've ever had any hostility due to speaking Welsh / speaking a language that isn't English, but I seem to have developed quite a plummy English accent in my dotage, with just a hint of my Welshness coming through after many years away from the Land of my Fathers, so once I do speak English I'm probably given a pass!

As for Chester, I grew up in North Wales and this was where we'd go for 'big shopping' trips. More than once the shop assistants have spoken Welsh to us there, and of course you then have the 'where are you from?' conversation. If you're from North Wales and go on a trip to Chester, there's a strong chance you'll hear Welsh spoken, and quite a good chance you'll know the person speaking (or their next door neighbour).

takenforgrantednana · 26/11/2021 18:09

as i am a person who lived on the cheshire / north wales border i can say only this, you are all wasting your time trying to get into her mind set, she like the rest from that area will never accept just how dam rude and ignorant they are being. the amount of times i have had this happen to me was enough to prompt me into learning to speak welsh, and i would keep quiet about it until the last few mins and then just say good bye etc etc in welsh and let them know i understood every word they had been saying

riceuten · 26/11/2021 18:11

@LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester? Confused
You are aware that Chester FC's ground is in Wales ? And that you can easily walk to Wales from Chester town centre?
lightsout · 26/11/2021 18:11

You’re right op. People do get hostile hearing a different language. Im bilingual and have seen the shift in attitude too. Sometimes it’s subtle but you still sense it.

CecilyP · 26/11/2021 18:14

But somehow, in your mind, you've translated that to that the guy simply stopped smiling, and you're using this to side with this random, hostile man, instead of believing the women he was hostile to.

You're bending reality to be what you want to believe instead of engaging with the OP in good faith.

Why would you do that?

I suppose I’m looking for something more specific than OP and her friend feeling this hostility. It’s all very dramatic but somewhat lacking in detail. I’m not siding with him; he could have been awful for all I know. OP and her friend were perfectly entitled to converse in Welsh. He may have felt they were talking about him, he may have been disappointed that the banter with the conductor wasn’t going to continue, or he may have been a thoroughly nasty person; who knows.

NotQuiteHere · 26/11/2021 18:16

Perhaps he got fed up with your non-stop chatting?

LittleMissMe99 · 26/11/2021 18:16

I'm Welsh. Yeah, how rude to speak with him and then completely exclude him. Absolutely no manners at all. I would never ever do that.

EerieSilence · 26/11/2021 18:17

@WhatATimeToBeAlive
"Maybe you've experienced what it's like for English speaking people who go to Wales, when the language suddenly changes from English to Welsh when English speakers are around."

Unless you are in a close group, where it's really rude, are you seriously expecting the Welsh speakers to speak English only because there's an only English speaking person in the vicinity? Is that you being real?
Would you expect to be in Spain and people switching to English from Spanish just because you don't understand them, even though they're not talking to you? Why speak a foreign language if they can speak their mother tongue?

wonderstuff · 26/11/2021 18:18

I think people who are monolingual struggle to understand the process of switching between languages and get offended and paranoid. It’s such a shame that we as English people aren’t better at languages, I think it really narrows our perspective. I’ve met so many English people convinced that Welsh speak Welsh to exclude them and can’t imagine it’s just easier to converse in your native tongue.

Ddraigmawr · 26/11/2021 18:19

@LittleMissMe99

I'm Welsh. Yeah, how rude to speak with him and then completely exclude him. Absolutely no manners at all. I would never ever do that.
Shit that never happened #102

Rtft

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