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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

999 replies

Builtthiscityonsausagerolls · 25/11/2021 21:29

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

OP posts:
AngryAtAssholes · 26/11/2021 18:21

I think what OPs post has beautifully proven is how defensive and narrow minded some English monoglots tend to be. And how hard they find it to read their own language correctly.

It’s the most prevalent form of English exceptionalism and as someone whose native language was almost wiped out by colonialism, I love it when people speak languages that couldn’t be destroyed!

EerieSilence · 26/11/2021 18:24

@wonderstuff - thank you.
As a multilingual speaker I can only say, spot on.
It's mainly the English speakers who expect everyone to speak English. Of course, if you speak English that's not perfect, you must be someone who's "simpler", with a lower IQ. If you start speaking your own language or a different language with someone, you get some pretty hostile looks from English mono speakers. They feel like you are talking about them just by speaking a foreign language in their presence, which is crap.

NoddyMcdoddy · 26/11/2021 18:26

I’m baffled by the countless posts stating two people on train having a conversation in their native language are considered rude to not have said conversation in English so other passengers on said train could understand and be assured they are not talking about them.

Seriously???

Walkaround · 26/11/2021 18:26

I think the problem with this thread is, it’s hard to envisage someone managing to convey friendliness and then hostility towards other people in the train carriage without ever once opening their mouth to speak or moving from their seat, especially given there was also no attempt to interract with said person from those making the complaint about the “hostility,” either.

Allycott · 26/11/2021 18:27

Yet another attempt to accuse people in England of being racist ...... yawn

smsd33 · 26/11/2021 18:29

[quote EerieSilence]@wonderstuff - thank you.
As a multilingual speaker I can only say, spot on.
It's mainly the English speakers who expect everyone to speak English. Of course, if you speak English that's not perfect, you must be someone who's "simpler", with a lower IQ. If you start speaking your own language or a different language with someone, you get some pretty hostile looks from English mono speakers. They feel like you are talking about them just by speaking a foreign language in their presence, which is crap.[/quote]
Absolutely this!

WestendVBroadway · 26/11/2021 18:29

@landofgiants

So weird that people feel threatened by hearing other languages spoken - I just don't get it. OP YANBU.

That story about someone going into a pub in Wales and everyone suddenly speaking Welsh to exclude them, is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard (and I've heard it many many times). I don't believe it has ever happened. I've been living in North Wales for around 15 years now, (I speak some Welsh but I am not fluent) and I have NEVER experienced this. If anything Welsh speakers go out of their way to switch languages to make me feel included.

@Texasfucked, @ChargingBuck, @landofgiants. I am sorry, but this in not bollocks or bullshit, it did indeed happen. It was over 20 years ago, it may just have been the customers of that particular pub in Caernarfon . Just because you have never experienced it does not make it a lie. I have been to several other places in Wales and not had a similar experience, but that does this not erase the fact that it actually happened , albeit only once. As I said , I have absolutely no problem with the OP conversing to a friend in Welsh when in England, and was unsure why others acted hostile towards her. When I go abroad on holiday I try to speak to the locals in their native tongue (in my limited foreign language skills) however I converse with my family in English.
bellocchild · 26/11/2021 18:29

It might be fear of being left out? People do resent not being part of everything that's going on, even if they can't reasonably expect to be. Someone in my family just wasn't bothered about learning a language, and became very cross indeed when English wasn't spoken by all present. This was tricky when her son married a girl who came from a large family of non-English speakers, and they were visiting...

FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo · 26/11/2021 18:33

Yeah, I quite believe you OP and I’m a Brit who only speaks English.

I think some posters are trying to tie themselves in knots to suggest the English can’t possibly be xenophobic, but like every country, the phobes exist. I live in Midlands (though East, not West) and despite being in a multicultural city it’s not hard to find people with xenophobic or racist views and it’s not a stretch to imagine something t similar was at play here.

I also think it bears repeating that witnessing a man having a ‘hostile’ attitude isn’t particularly outside of normal human observation. I mean I can tell when another species (like a cat) is hostile even without them making a noise. I’d hope we are even more in tune with our own species.

ReadtheFT · 26/11/2021 18:33

We ve been commented on before about speaking our mother tongue to our kids as it was apparently "rude".once i spoke to my child whilst on phone with GP receptionist and she instructed that i should speak to them in english! Some people find it rude, I couldnt care less. Ill speak to my children and friends in any language i wish, if you get paranoic we r gossiping about you then though.

Rightmess2 · 26/11/2021 18:42

You weren't being rude, OP. I am a native speaker of English and DH is not. We each speak to DS in our respective mother tongues and to each other in DH's mother tongue, which I'm fluent in. We have definitely experienced coldness and even rudeness from people who seem offended that we are speaking to each other in a language they don't understand. We always speak to strangers in the language of the country we are in, be that DH's home country or here in the UK. I am way past caring what closed-minded monolingual people might think about us switching between languages. It is our absolute right and none of anyone else's business.

Thereluctantgrownup · 26/11/2021 18:45

As someone born and bred in Chester, can 100% confirm that it's massively common to hear Welsh being spoken around the city!

HolaAmigoz · 26/11/2021 18:53

@LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester? Confused
Have you ever actually been to Chester?
Anitarest · 26/11/2021 18:58

Not convinced that the xenophobia wasn’t the two Welsh people interpreting a non-verbal reaction as hostile.
Body language changed?
Why watch him if you were talking to your friend? When people talk in whispers whilst watching someone it’s rude. When I’m talking to someone I’m not usually eyeing up the rest of the company.

MarvellousMonsters · 26/11/2021 19:03

@LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester? Confused
I work in Chester, lots of people speak Welsh here!
mrsdaltongrant · 26/11/2021 19:05

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls perception? You thought they were being hostile and maybe they thought the same.

EerieSilence · 26/11/2021 19:05

I really love reading this post.
"I'm not xenophobic, just speak English when you are around me."
"How did you know the body language has changed? How did you dare to not stare in each other's eyes like two little love doves and be completely oblivious to your surroundings?"
"Why did you speak Welsh in Chester?"

Butchyrestingface · 26/11/2021 19:05

To put the thread back on track, I was more curious as to whether other people experience hostility when not speaking English in public

Have used BSL on public transport and in public generally. Reactions so far ranging from curiosity to don't-give-a-fuck. Only once experienced a negative reaction (wouldn't call it hostility) and that was when my (deaf) conversational partner and I was apparently called 'show offs' for signing - we weren't aware of the person saying it, someone else helpfully reported it back to us afterwards. 🙄

tootootaataa · 26/11/2021 19:06

How very bizarre some of these comments are!

I am an expat and hear so many languages spoken.Of course people switch to whatever language is more comfortable for them. If we are speaking to someone who only speaks one language, then we speak in that language if they are included in the conversation.
If they are not included in the conversations then we speak in whichever language we are most comfortable in. As is human natures

Languages also change mid conversation too. (I am not so multilingual but plenty of my friends are!)

When DH and I don't want to be understood, we often switch to our mother tongue (Geordie) which none of the non-mother tongue people (or most Brits for that matter) speak.... Grin

LynetteScavo · 26/11/2021 19:08

I think switching from
English not another language was hostile behaviour. You were purposely excluding him from your conversation. Which is why he then became hostile to you. You were perfectly allowed to exclude him, but he's also allowed to feel a bit miffed at being excluded.

ThePoisonousMushroom · 26/11/2021 19:14

@LynetteScavo

I think switching from English not another language was hostile behaviour. You were purposely excluding him from your conversation. Which is why he then became hostile to you. You were perfectly allowed to exclude him, but he's also allowed to feel a bit miffed at being excluded.
Why? They weren’t with him, or talking to him. They were talking to each other. He was just a stranger sitting near to them. Why would be need to be included? He wasn’t part of the conversation!
EerieSilence · 26/11/2021 19:17

@LynetteScavo - so, switching to their mother tongue to talk to each other as two friends was bad because a stranger couldn't understand them? And felt excluded?
Do you feel like you need to include all people on a public transport in your conversations with your friends?

ketchuponpizza · 26/11/2021 19:19

@LynetteScavo

I think switching from English not another language was hostile behaviour. You were purposely excluding him from your conversation. Which is why he then became hostile to you. You were perfectly allowed to exclude him, but he's also allowed to feel a bit miffed at being excluded.
What? That is just ridiculous.
MilkTooth · 26/11/2021 19:21

@LynetteScavo

I think switching from English not another language was hostile behaviour. You were purposely excluding him from your conversation. Which is why he then became hostile to you. You were perfectly allowed to exclude him, but he's also allowed to feel a bit miffed at being excluded.
I usually think of you as a reliably sensible poster, but surely you can see this is mad?
HerbertChops · 26/11/2021 19:22

Agree this is a thing in England, I live in London, am English but DH is Albanian. We often speak in Albanian with each other, or switch mid-way through a conversation. Albanian doesn't have as many words as English so often use Albanian with English mixed in. I've never been attacked for it but he has on more than one occasion. It's not just hostility and people staring, it's people threatening him in front of our dc. Only happened in London, not when we've been travelling in the rest of the UK, which surprises me as lots of different languages spoken here.