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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

999 replies

Builtthiscityonsausagerolls · 25/11/2021 21:29

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

OP posts:
HesterShaw1 · 26/11/2021 14:15

To be honest...if that does happen....I can kind of understand it. The Welsh and the Welsh language suffered for centuries under English rule. They were treated very badly. If Welsh speakers want to keep something of their own, I'm not going to begrudge it. I'm from South Wales originally and don't speak the language though I wish I did. But I'm wondering how hard it is to learn to say "Alright? Two pints of Brains and a glass of white wine please. Cold out isn't it?"

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 14:15

Thanks for your long & thoughtful response to my nosiness about your family background & language decisions @Autumndays123, it was kind of you to take such trouble for me.

Xenophobia is rampant in North Wales, in my experience.

It's rampant in most of England, in mine ... but I don't think this is a zero-sum game, where only ONE nation gets to be the evil bigot.
It's just human nature, isn't it, for many people? "My Way IS The Righteous And Only Way" mentality - especially post-Brexit, in England.

TakeMe2Insanity · 26/11/2021 14:16

@Theunamedcat

He has probably experienced exclusion before it's not nice
But it’s not exclusion, it’s a random guy on a train not someone in the group.
hotmeatymilk · 26/11/2021 14:16

OP said Cheshire.
I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester)

MN is a fascinating insight into people just reading whatever they want and replying to their fantasy instead of the OP. We’ve also had on this thread someone convinced the OP had her back to this man, who she was… sitting opposite.

HesterShaw1 · 26/11/2021 14:19

Helo. Dau beint o Brains os gwelwch yn dda. A gwydraid o win gwyn. Mae'n oer heddiw yn tydi?

Otherpeoplesteens · 26/11/2021 14:19

I'm trying to work out how many English pensioners I know in the Algarve who have lived there 20 plus years and never learned a word of Portuguese beyond "do you speak English?"

HesterShaw1 · 26/11/2021 14:20

And if they want to talk about me, crack on. I'm not very interesting and I don't understand anyway.

MilkTooth · 26/11/2021 14:27

@hotmeatymilk

OP said Cheshire. I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester)

MN is a fascinating insight into people just reading whatever they want and replying to their fantasy instead of the OP. We’ve also had on this thread someone convinced the OP had her back to this man, who she was… sitting opposite.

Maybe it's a Welsh thing to turn your back to people sitting opposite you on trains, probably so you can mutter anti-English sentiments with impunity while on your way to hang out in The Paranoid Pony and its sister pubs where the regulars switch immediately into Welsh the second a Saxon footstep hits the doorstep. I hear this happens all the time.
BasiliskStare · 26/11/2021 14:27

@onceandneveragain

I apologise without reservation - I did hear them speaking english & they changed. Now I suspect as we were just visiting - they could tell we weren't local.

Looking back on it fair enough - it just felt strange at the time (Am I allowed to say that )

I live in an area where people speak different languages all the time - it was just the changing which felt strange.

But I get your point & entirely their choice. I couldn't give a shiny hoot what they were speaking about but I promise you it sounded like English - may be I am wrong and it was Wenglish

I did not mean to offend / sorry for old chestnut.

Let me tell you 30 years on I don't care - it just seemed a little apposite to the conversation - did not mean to offend.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 14:29

There are literally teachers on this thread saying that they would speak to parents if they caught a child speaking another language.

& I have literally just posted about my own experience of exactly this educational technique @Autumndays123

You are presenting "speaking to parents" as an evil, when it's clear from reading the teacher PP's post that it came from a place of concern that a child may not be integrating fully due to not being able to understand others. It's a good thing - it's taking care of pupil welfare!

How are you supposed to have any credibility whatsoever in a debate where you can't be bothered reading all the posts
Aaaaw, & you were doing so well, debating nicely without resorting to insult, til you fell at this hurdle :)

My "credibility" isn't something to concern yourself with. You can find me incredible til the cows come home if you want, there's no "supposed to" about it - this is MN, not an interview for a senior ambassador to the United Nations ffs.

KirstenBlest · 26/11/2021 14:29

@Hathertonhariden

For clarity for those who are questioning English experiences in North Wales the sequence is, you go into a shop/pub whatever people are speaking English. They continue speaking English until you are heard speaking with an English accent. At that point conversation turns to Welsh.

Nobody would have an issue with walking into an environment where you could hear people speaking Welsh (or any other language) and those people continued speaking the same language. It's the very pointed change of language that is rude.

Given the history between Wales and England and that North Wales is the heartland of the Welsh nats it's not surprising that it happens. You don't see so many "English go home" signs as you once did (apart from during lockdown) but that feeling towards the English isn't going to disappear.

Where does this happen? It has never happened to me - DP is english and I lost my welsh accent decades ago. We have walked into pubs and shops where people spoke in Welsh plenty of times.

I have been in pubs and cafes where staff would speak English to customers and Welsh amongst themselves, which is quite normal

Thadhiya · 26/11/2021 14:32

People are so weird, and cannot believe how many weird responses in this thread. "It's rude to use other languages" - on a bleedin' TRAIN? She doesn't OWE some random bloke in another seat any courtesy in the language she uses. "He thought you were talking about him", are you all insane?

Christ, this island.

OP in your shoes I'd use Welsh everywhere and make the English utterly wet themselves in terror.

crystal1717 · 26/11/2021 14:36

But children aren't allowed to speak their own language in academies. It's one of their many (unexplainable) rules. Along with inappropriate shoes, no toileting, no coats, no talking and no running around at playtime.

Ilovestars · 26/11/2021 14:38

@WomanStanleyWoman

Why would you expect him to continue being friendly when you’d deliberately switched to a language he didn’t understand? Even the most positive interpretation is that you were signalling that your conversation was now private - so of course he’d pull back.
He didn't need to understand? She was chatting to the conducter in English, and when that convo was over she started speaking to her friend in their own language. The random man is just sitting there and was not part of the conversation?

If you'd travel in Germany with your friend, would you keep speaking german to each other or your native language? Same difference.

Ladywinesalot · 26/11/2021 14:40

English entitlement
Only the English will think they are being spoken about it’s because it’s what they do when they abroad.
Stupid natives and all that Confused

3scape · 26/11/2021 14:46

I hear a reasonable amount of Welsh in the Midlands, maybe that is unusual. But if two people drop into a different language I've seen hackles go up. I suspect it does make people paranoid though.

Pumperthepumper · 26/11/2021 15:16

@Autumndays123 it’s incredible to me that you know so much about your daughter being bullied but would have preferred not to know when she was being isolated in the playground.

How did she learn Welsh in the end?

lockdownalli · 26/11/2021 15:29

I am not convinced by this "hostility" to be honest. He didn't say anything, didn't move seats or anything. You cannot describe anything he actually did that would warrant the label hostile.

How do you know he wasn't behaving as he usually does when on a long boring train journey?

justustwoandmoo · 26/11/2021 15:43

@LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester? Confused
Since forever because it's right next to North Wales x
uneffingbelievable · 26/11/2021 15:43

Give me a break - everyone who is bilingual or more switches to the other language to say something derogatory and anyone who has not done it is lying.

As kids my mum spoke French and English and my Dad German, Dutch and English. Kids used to speak to each other in the language that they knew their parents did not know and it was usually to be rude!

As to switching languages infront of people at work - always speak in English - it is the language of the country I live in and the offical language of communication.

With my friends and family I will do what ever I like

KirstenBlest · 26/11/2021 15:45

I've never done it and you have no right to call me a liar @uneffingbelievable

Redact · 26/11/2021 15:47

You are entitled to converse with your friend in your native tongue. It's ridiculous for anyone to say it's not. We don't have to speak English so as not to offend strangers who only speak English especially when they are not even your travelling companion. It's not all about them!

Ddraigmawr · 26/11/2021 15:47

@KirstenBlest

I've never done it and you have no right to call me a liar *@uneffingbelievable*
Same
ButterfliesAndDaffodils · 26/11/2021 15:59

@Thadhiya

People are so weird, and cannot believe how many weird responses in this thread. "It's rude to use other languages" - on a bleedin' TRAIN? She doesn't OWE some random bloke in another seat any courtesy in the language she uses. "He thought you were talking about him", are you all insane?

Christ, this island.

OP in your shoes I'd use Welsh everywhere and make the English utterly wet themselves in terror.

Exactly. It's rude to speak (or as it was so nicely put by a PP, 'jabber') another language so everyone around you can't understand your conversation? Why?

He thought you were talking about him? So what. I'm sure he'll survive.

I'm going to visit my sister in England in a few days. I'm tempted to suggest that we speak 'as Gaeilge' just to see how many heads we can make explode.

Though we aren't fluent, so our conversations will mostly be 'an bhfuil céad agam dul go dtí an leithreas, más é do thoil é', 'cá bhfuil an cáca milis', and 'tá ocras orm' Grin. Oh and 'tabhair dom an uisce beatha' Wink

KirstenBlest · 26/11/2021 16:01

I do switch to Welsh - when answering the phone if it's a nuisance call, or if I am approached by chuggers etc, but I do not use it to be rude about people

I've been out and about and heard English speakers say things about us like "These Germans are so rude, don't they realise we can understand them'