I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

@Lndnmummy - what a kind remark to give a random old bag on the net - thank you very much!

@hangrylady

"You often hear people speak Welsh in Chester."

You really don't. I'm from Chester. Oh and speaking of xenophobia, I have never seen anyone hate the English as much as people from North Wales.

I think the Irish may argue that point!

It's basically a hangover from a colonialist mindset that dictated that we had the lingua franca as masters of the universe and its deeply unpleasant.

Yep.☝🏽

I used to live overseas in a country where English is a very widely spoken second language.

I recall a group of friends native to that country complaining about North African people coming to their country and talking their own languages. I asked them why it was a problem, as sometimes I spoke my own language, sometimes the language of the country I lived in.

"Everyone speaks your language so we know you're not talking about us behind our backs".

I think that kind of paranoia is a worldwide thing. You weren't deliberately being rude, but he found it hostile. Neither of you are right or wrong.

@EileenGC

I left Wales because I wanted better for my child. I saw several Welsh friends attend English universities and just did not do well because their whole education has been Welsh only and they struggled to write academically in English. I wanted more for my daughter than that.

Wow, then those of us who came to the UK for uni having never even visited an English-speaking country before, let alone speak English to someone other than a teacher, we must all be lost causes...

How do you think international students manage at an English uni? I didn't know how to write academically in English either. 31% of the student body at my university, made up of EU and international students, didn't write academic English.

I did well at uni because I applied myself, not because I'd been educated in English at school. I spoke awful English when I arrived, struggled for a few months and was then fine. I got 89% in my final essay at uni.

Your daughter's school sounds truly awful, so I do agree with you, that particular attitude should not be tolerated ever.

But parents aren't doing their kids any harm by sending them to school in a different language than the one they will use at university. That's just called narrow-mindedness.

I'm glad you agree that my daughter's school sounded awful. Sadly that is how most of them are.

I'm not sure why you're questioning my parenting decisions, or why you think I'm narrow-minded. I appreciate international students come to this country to attend university but I'm not sure why you think that is relevant to me? Do you really think that I sat down one day, looked around at the poverty, homelessness, lack of employment and low wages in Wales and thought hmmm but international students learn to speak another language 🙄. I used the knowledge and experience at my disposal and decided to move away from Wales to give my daughter an opportunity to complete her education in England and make an easier transition to an English university. It really is that simple and if you can't see that then I would suggest some kind of therapy to help improve your level of self-awareness and acceptance that other people may have different experiences to you

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls

You often hear people speak Welsh in Chester. It's the closest city to North Wales... parts of Chester City are literally in Wales (the football ground for example) Why would a complete stranger think we are excluding him? I turned to my friend and we talked in our native language. Although interesting as to why maybe there is xenophobia. Is it paranoia that they 'might be talking about me

Because one minute you're chatting to him, next minute you're speaking only to you friend and in another language! It's rude. If you'd ignored everyone and only spoken Welsh (maybe a little English to staff because it was necessary to purchase ticket or something, not to chat) that would've be fine, you'd have been viewed as foreigners. But to deliberately include someone in chat only to then snub them in a very obvious way later, was incredibly rude. I'm not surprised you felt angry vibes from him, most people feel angry when someone is rude to them.

@EllieLucy As has been clarified many, many times in this thread, she was never speaking to this other random passenger. She was speaking to the conductor. Hostile Random Man was simply there, yet to reveal his hostility.

@KirstenBlest

It was Welsh Not not Welsh Knot

It was called both things and others - Welsh note, Welsh lump etc

@WhatATimeToBeAlive

Maybe you've experienced what it's like for English speaking people who go to Wales, when the language suddenly changes from English to Welsh when English speakers are around.

Was he staring because he was trying to work out what language you were speaking and was actually interested? Or maybe he spoke Welsh and understood every word?

Maybe you could spend a moment in quiet reflection, wondering why you feel entitled to have other people defer to you by adopting your native language, & only your native language, when in your oh-so-important presence @WhatATimeToBeAlive

Because one minute you're chatting to him, next minute you're speaking only to you friend and in another language! It's rude. If you'd ignored everyone and only spoken Welsh (maybe a little English to staff because it was necessary to purchase ticket or something, not to chat) that would've be fine, you'd have been viewed as foreigners. But to deliberately include someone in chat only to then snub them in a very obvious way later, was incredibly rude. I'm not surprised you felt angry vibes from him, most people feel angry when someone is rude to them

Except that is not what happened, what is your view on what actually did happen?

@CounsellorTroi, welsh knot is something else

@coffeecats

I don’t deny there was a step up in xenophobia after Brexit. But let’s be clear, Wales (overall) voted for Brexit!

They did @coffeecats, even some of the farmers - some of whom are now incredulously whinging about EU subsidy losses.

However, there is some research data (so sorry, cannot reference, but this is MN, not University Challenge so bear with me) that the large % of Anglos now living in Wales were pro-Brexit, & that this was a major influence in swinging to vote.

Maybe you could spend a moment in quiet reflection, wondering why you feel entitled to have other people defer to you by adopting your native language, & only your native language, when in your oh-so-important presence.

This. The entitlement from native English speakers is breathtaking.

Many years ago I worked on a French client once which was doing a financial transaction (in France and with French advisers). My company was brought on board to advise them on English elements of this.

My then boss insisted that all meetings and calls related to this transaction had to be conducted in English because "its the international business language". When in fact she and I were the only people out of the 30 something other individuals involved who spoke English as a first language as opposed to French. I resigned the account over it as I thought it was bloody rude and showed our own shortcomings in not having a fluent French speaker.

Eventually they fired us for being "inflexible" over language. As well they might have done.

That has stayed with me ever since. English speakers need to watch this sense of entitlement. It doesn't feel good at all when its directed back at you.

The individual was offered Welsh lessons as part of their role anyway but they “didn’t see why they should” and left with no notice.

Result! @NavigatingAdolescence :)

I think you're being a bit dramatic. He probably though you are insulting him or something. It sounds like you were being rude .

Stonking, heartfelt post @EileenGC, really enjoyed it - you write well & make excellent points :)

(your post about Spain, btw, page 21)

@LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester?

OP said Cheshire.

In my opinion, you cannot and absolutely should not tell anyone what language they must speak in their free time (which is what the playground is).

But it’s not “free time” in the sense that after school and weekends are “free time”. They are still bound by school rules pertaining to speaking Welsh. I went to Welsh medium primary and secondary schools in the 60s and 70s, we were expected to speak Welsh at all times but often did not when out of earshot of teachers, it was a form of rebellion. If a teacher caught us speaking Welsh we would get told off but nothing more.

Of course people look at you suspiciously (or whatever adjective fits) if you speak a different language. Anyone who says it doesn’t happen is lying.

Or maybe instead of just extracting a small part of my post, read the rest of it? Or my post after that one? Have you tried reading English, might be a good start.

No, @Tabbacus, I refuse to read English, the language of my oppressors. You are Othering me with the very idea!

btw, I quoted the extract because that's the bit I was interested in.
I'm aware that you're multilingual, & the example I used was to highlight how daft (outrageous, really) it is to expect other people to speak English, just because one is in England, or just because English people are present.

Most of the PP complaining about the concept of hearing Welsh on a train are no doubt happily marching around the globe, speaking English on their holidays, without sparing a thought for their double standards & entitlement.

[quote KirstenBlest]@CounsellorTroi, welsh knot is something else[/quote]
The term Welsh Knot was used in this context,

@CounsellorTroi You probably got that off wiki, which isn't reliable. Bickering amongst ourselves doesn't add to the thread.

For clarity for those who are questioning English experiences in North Wales the sequence is, you go into a shop/pub whatever people are speaking English. They continue speaking English until you are heard speaking with an English accent. At that point conversation turns to Welsh.

Nobody would have an issue with walking into an environment where you could hear people speaking Welsh (or any other language) and those people continued speaking the same language. It's the very pointed change of language that is rude.

Given the history between Wales and England and that North Wales is the heartland of the Welsh nats it's not surprising that it happens. You don't see so many "English go home" signs as you once did (apart from during lockdown) but that feeling towards the English isn't going to disappear.

I used the knowledge and experience at my disposal and decided to move away from Wales to give my daughter an opportunity to complete her education in England and make an easier transition to an English university.

Right, this is different from implying children educated in Welsh are at a disadvantage which is what your original post that I quoted said. You said your friends’ children ‘did not do well because they’d been schooled in Welsh’. Which is simply not true - like you say, it’s not just about that.

It really is that simple and if you can't see that then I would suggest some kind of therapy to help improve your level of self-awareness and acceptance that other people may have different experiences to you

And then you write something like this and we’re all inclined to think you’ve just lost the plot But hey, who am I to know, I wasn’t schooled in English so perhaps I’m losing the nuances here…

This thread is all about people’s different experiences - that’s what we’re all sharing. There are awful schools and inclusive schools in Wales. There are xenophobic people and kind people in England. And everywhere. It’s not as ‘simple’ as one’s experience being more ‘true’ than someone else’s.

My nain (grandmother) was fined a penny if she was caught speaking Welsh at school in Wales. She was the eldest of 9 and they did not have enough money for food at home. It was a substantial penalty for them.