Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

999 replies

Builtthiscityonsausagerolls · 25/11/2021 21:29

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

OP posts:
ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:35

@Autumndays123 what I'm genuinely puzzling over is how you grew up in N Wales, in a solidly Welsh ancestral family, yet chose not to be bilingual.

That decision is what has made you feel excluded you from your native country.
But you are so angry about it that you would rather blame your country for speaking Welsh, that accept that your opportunities were limited because you chose not to.

And you seem curiously unaffected by the fact of centuries of English oppression in Wales & deliberate extermination of Welsh language. You seem to equate being expected to be able to ask for the ty bach in Welsh, with small kids being daily humiliated & ritually beaten by a hostile invading force, when under English rule.

You chose not to speak Welsh.
You chose to leave Wales.
You choose to imagine the Welsh are all xenophobic bigots hellbent on harming children through the medium of ... reasonable educational expectations, yet ignore the centuries of war, murder & oppression by the English that led to the near extermination of the native tongue you won't speak.

That's fine, & entirely your choice, but you don't get to pretend that raising bilingual kids is some kind of fascistic policy decision.

I live further south than you did, & all the kids in my village are bilingual, so this isn't a goad, it's genuinely curiosity as to what the circumstances, were that prevented your fluency - in the north, where Welsh is far more routinely spoken, & far more likely to be a first language,

EezyOozy · 26/11/2021 12:37

The thing is, nobody was actually rude to the Op.

EezyOozy · 26/11/2021 12:37

Nobody said or did anything....

EezyOozy · 26/11/2021 12:39

She spoke Welsh on a train and nobody reacted whatsoever....

NwaNaija · 26/11/2021 12:41

[quote Otherpeoplesteens]@EileenGC

Thank you so much for sharing that. I really enjoyed it.

India is the same - Hindi imposed on the population by the central government, and even more ridiculous when most of the best schools use English as the language of instruction anyway.

Patuá will become extinct in my lifetime. Apart from my sister who can hardly remember it I am no longer in contact with a single other speaker.[/quote]
This has happened in Nigeria too, where English was and still is imposed in every area of public life - schools, workplaces, churches, etc. Speaking any language other than English is a punishable offence in most of these places, especially schools.

There are a few majority languages (among over 500 languages) in Nigeria but those aren't imposed on the whole Nigerian population.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:44

BUT if a child of any nationality is talking their mother tongue on a playground in a school in Wales then that should not be encouraged. Parents will be spoken to and concerns will be raised on the matter.

BUT this is a total exaggeration, & therefore not true, & therefore a false equivalence.

There is no "English Knot", @Autumndays123, no matter how you froth, no English speaker is being oppressed. If you can't see the difference between language education & a deliberate policy of suppression & punishment, it's small wonder you chose to stay monolingual.

(& if you are not a monoglot, that proves nothing except you are perfectly able to learn another language, but simply didn't want to learn Welsh. That's your personal choice. Just as Welsh speaking employers & educators have a personal choice. They're not angry you don't want to speak Welsh, they simply want to employ/educate bilinguals - but you seem angry that they wish to do so!)

landofgiants · 26/11/2021 12:45

@EileenGC - great post!

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:49

Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England.

Thank you @HarrietsChariot, for encapsulating English arrogance & English entitlement in one fell swoop.

To quote Just William - "there orter be a LAW!"

(Don't worry, there soon will be, going by the mass ignorance & xenophobia on display here)

Glitterblue · 26/11/2021 12:50

OP you asked if you should speak in English on a train in Birmingham so people don't think you're talking about them. That's completely different, if it's just you and your friend talking in Welsh and not speaking to anyone else, nobody would bay an eyelid. But I do think if you start out speaking to someone else in English and then switch to Welsh while they're still there, it could come across as a bit rude and make them feel uncomfortable and excluded.

hangrylady · 26/11/2021 12:50

"You often hear people speak Welsh in Chester."

You really don't. I'm from Chester. Oh and speaking of xenophobia, I have never seen anyone hate the English as much as people from North Wales.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:52

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt I experienced overt hostility in a town in Snowdonia when I went into a shop chatting in English. It was palpable. Never experienced anything similar in my life!
If this is your Worst Hostility Experience Ever, you need to get out more @NewModelArmyMayhem18.

Or maybe less ...

Croeso!

KirstenBlest · 26/11/2021 12:55

@hangrylady

"You often hear people speak Welsh in Chester."

You really don't. I'm from Chester. Oh and speaking of xenophobia, I have never seen anyone hate the English as much as people from North Wales.

You do hear it. Not all the time, but quite often. I've even heard Welsh spoken in London, and in a Home Counties town
Alittlenonsensenowandthen · 26/11/2021 12:56

Non Welsh speaking Welsh person here. I think English ppl would assume that Welsh is a second language and therefore you must've switched to say something about them!

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:57

@HomeSliceKnowsBest

Yes it's like this all over England OP. We are all horrifically racist especially to the Welsh Confused
If you are English, how are you managing to be racist to 'the Welsh', @HomeSliceKnowsBest? You know we're the same race, right?

PP aren't being racist in their outraged belief that Welsh people OUGHT to speak English around monoglot self-important nosy parkers.
They are being insular, ignorant, assumptive, & xenophobic.

HTH

BigWoollyJumpers · 26/11/2021 13:03

I have quite a good understanding of several European languages, though not Welsh, but I have in past watched people switch to their native language to say something less than positive about someone in their vicinity. If it is something particularly unpleasant I take great pleasure in responding back in English, or sometimes the native language if I speak it well enough. Always causes consternation. Many people assume English people only speak English, increasingly this is not the case.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 13:04

I think more along the lines of 'anonymous teacher tries to stop children from speaking their native language in private conversations'. The fact you don't see how disgusting that is speaks volumes

I KNOW, right?

It really is appalling.
Only the other year, a teacher (non-anonymous, not sure of the relevance but you seem to find that important) had the fucking temerity to tick me off for speaking English in my Welsh lesson.

The arrogance! The oppression!
How else am I going to get these bloody people to appreciate that as I have trouble learning a hard language, all the effort needs to be made by anyone but me?!

The teacher was an otherwise personable Englishwoman named Mary. It's disgusting, what these teachers are capable of, obstinately doing their jobs at people who have attended a school expressly to learn another language. Should I dob her in to her local authority @Autumndays123, or should I pm you so you can track her down yourself & give her what for?

Autumndays123 · 26/11/2021 13:05

[quote ChargingBuck]@Autumndays123 what I'm genuinely puzzling over is how you grew up in N Wales, in a solidly Welsh ancestral family, yet chose not to be bilingual.

That decision is what has made you feel excluded you from your native country.
But you are so angry about it that you would rather blame your country for speaking Welsh, that accept that your opportunities were limited because you chose not to.

And you seem curiously unaffected by the fact of centuries of English oppression in Wales & deliberate extermination of Welsh language. You seem to equate being expected to be able to ask for the ty bach in Welsh, with small kids being daily humiliated & ritually beaten by a hostile invading force, when under English rule.

You chose not to speak Welsh.
You chose to leave Wales.
You choose to imagine the Welsh are all xenophobic bigots hellbent on harming children through the medium of ... reasonable educational expectations, yet ignore the centuries of war, murder & oppression by the English that led to the near extermination of the native tongue you won't speak.

That's fine, & entirely your choice, but you don't get to pretend that raising bilingual kids is some kind of fascistic policy decision.

I live further south than you did, & all the kids in my village are bilingual, so this isn't a goad, it's genuinely curiosity as to what the circumstances, were that prevented your fluency - in the north, where Welsh is far more routinely spoken, & far more likely to be a first language,[/quote]
Honestly? I can hold a basic conversation in Welsh and can understand it for the most part. When I was in school, there wasn't as much emphasis on Welsh because the Welsh Act and such had not yet been introduced. This meant that Welsh was taught in welsh-medium schools and in other schools, it was taught as a Welsh lesson. I'm not saying this was right, I think it's a shame.

As I got older and furthered my education (as noted, Welsh language isn't a must in medical careers/university staff etc) I didn't choose to become 'fluent' because quite frankly, I was too busy studying advanced degrees whilst working full-time and raising my family. It matters little to me that you're 'puzzled' by this, it is my choice. I am no less 'Welsh' than anyone else just because my language skills are not as advanced. To think otherwise in my opinion is the root of xenophobia.

I had my child around the time when the Welsh Gov decided to 'promote' (I use that word loosely) the Welsh language. They did this by making most schools in North Wales (the deepest parts) Welsh only. My career, house and husband's career were in our hometown, therefore, contrary to suggestions in this thread to just 'move to an English speaking school' we had few options other than to make the two hour each way trip to the border in the morning and again in the afternoon.

My child started school and I honestly did not quite anticipate how coercive it would be. As raised earlier in my post, my daughter in her first week needed to use the toilet and was not allowed until she perfected her pronunciation in front of the whole class whilst other children sniggered. From then on, she was bullied and assaulted by children for being 'English'. As she got older, maybe aged 7/8, the children would add other insults to the 'English ', which I will leave to you imagination.

In around year 3, an international child joined the school. Unfortunately, she received the same treatment from pupils and having spoken to her distressed mother at length, I can tell you that the advice from the teachers to combat the bullying was 'speak more Welsh at home'. My daughter did learn Welsh and as I mentioned earlier, by the time she finished primary school, she was fluent. However she was still not 'welsh enough' for the other kids and the bullying continued. The fact other children were told to 'report' any English being spoken on the playground only compounded the issue, as the teachers were advocating the 'naughtiness' of the language.

Teachers would regularly threaten my daughter with being excluded from activities (including the class trip) if she continued to speak English to her international friend. I was regularly pulled up on it in parents evening, where I was reminded that it was a Welsh school.

In my opinion, you cannot and absolutely should not tell anyone what language they must speak in their free time (which is what the playground is). The fact there are teachers on here agreeing that they wouldn't allow any other language to be spoken on the playground other than the native language has honestly sickened me. I'm also baffled how the same people are outraged on the OPs behalf that someone's body language changed when she dared to speak her mother tongue in a different country.

I left Wales because I wanted better for my child. I saw several Welsh friends attend English universities and just did not do well because their whole education has been Welsh only and they struggled to write academically in English. I wanted more for my daughter than that. Unfortunately, whilst Welsh is a beautiful language in terms of employment prospects, it is actually a barrier to receive a Welsh-only education, if you want a job anywhere else in the world. As I said in an earlier post, Wales are notorious for very, very poor jobs prospects and low wages. Particularly in the North.

At the end of the day, everyone on this thread has different experiences and it's bizarre that other posters with absolutely no knowledge on the subject can come here and tell people they didn't actually have those experiences. The ignorance and sheer uneducated views are almost tangible!

Xenophobia is rampant in North Wales, in my experience. Far worse than anything I've ever encountered in any other part of the world. It always amazes me that it is acceptable for a Welsh person to scowl and ridicule a non-speaking Welsh person for speaking English, yet if this happened ANYWHERE else in the world, they would be a racist.

EileenGC · 26/11/2021 13:05

Many people assume English people only speak English, increasingly this is not the case.

And many people assume everybody switching languages must be bitching about those around them. Also not the case in the majority of cases.

Autumndays123 · 26/11/2021 13:07

@ChargingBuck

BUT if a child of any nationality is talking their mother tongue on a playground in a school in Wales then that should not be encouraged. Parents will be spoken to and concerns will be raised on the matter.

BUT this is a total exaggeration, & therefore not true, & therefore a false equivalence.

There is no "English Knot", @Autumndays123, no matter how you froth, no English speaker is being oppressed. If you can't see the difference between language education & a deliberate policy of suppression & punishment, it's small wonder you chose to stay monolingual.

(& if you are not a monoglot, that proves nothing except you are perfectly able to learn another language, but simply didn't want to learn Welsh. That's your personal choice. Just as Welsh speaking employers & educators have a personal choice. They're not angry you don't want to speak Welsh, they simply want to employ/educate bilinguals - but you seem angry that they wish to do so!)

There are literally teachers on this thread saying that they would speak to parents if they caught a child speaking another language. How are you supposed to have any credibility whatsoever in a debate where you can't be bothered reading all the posts
HesterShaw1 · 26/11/2021 13:08

@ChargingBuck

Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England.

Thank you @HarrietsChariot, for encapsulating English arrogance & English entitlement in one fell swoop.

To quote Just William - "there orter be a LAW!"

(Don't worry, there soon will be, going by the mass ignorance & xenophobia on display here)

HarrietsChariot has posted a few suspiciously confrontational opinions today. I recognise the name from another board.

It's almost....gasp....as if s/he is playing silly buggers.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 13:08

@madisonbridges

The irony of a Welsh person complaining about feeling hostility in England whilst speaking Welsh. Lol.
Er - what?

Can you explain how your version of 'irony' works here @madisonbridges, 'cos I cannot fathom it.

Lol

Autumndays123 · 26/11/2021 13:11

@ChargingBuck

I think more along the lines of 'anonymous teacher tries to stop children from speaking their native language in private conversations'. The fact you don't see how disgusting that is speaks volumes

I KNOW, right?

It really is appalling.
Only the other year, a teacher (non-anonymous, not sure of the relevance but you seem to find that important) had the fucking temerity to tick me off for speaking English in my Welsh lesson.

The arrogance! The oppression!
How else am I going to get these bloody people to appreciate that as I have trouble learning a hard language, all the effort needs to be made by anyone but me?!

The teacher was an otherwise personable Englishwoman named Mary. It's disgusting, what these teachers are capable of, obstinately doing their jobs at people who have attended a school expressly to learn another language. Should I dob her in to her local authority @Autumndays123, or should I pm you so you can track her down yourself & give her what for?

Oh wow, it just continues. Urm poster, I used 'anonymous' as the person I was talking to at the time referred to themselves as an anonymous person. Please please stop embarrassing yourself. Stop trying to pick apart my posts because you look ridiculous now. We also haven't been discussing talking English in class, not sure why you're talking about that. I've said in all my posts we are talking about conversations which occur on the playground, not classroom.

Stop trying so hard to be offended by my posts, seriously.

KirstenBlest · 26/11/2021 13:14

It was Welsh Not not Welsh Knot

thepeopleversuswork · 26/11/2021 13:15

I haven't RTFT but..

I'm a native English speaker with poor grasp of any other languages but one of the things I dislike most about fellow English people is their hostility and suspicion towards people speaking other languages.

I also find it absolutely baffling that anyone would take umbrage at someone choosing to speak their mother tongue (or any other tongue for that matter) in a private conversation with a friend which doesn't concern anyone else.

It's basically a hangover from a colonialist mindset that dictated that we had the lingua franca as masters of the universe and its deeply unpleasant.

I love hearing people speak other languages (even though I'm pretty shit at it myself). Anyone who is threatened by this or considers it rude is just embarrassed by their own ignorance.

So for all of you non English speakers: please crack on, ignore the bigots. We'll eventually evolve to your level of sophistication.

EileenGC · 26/11/2021 13:17

I left Wales because I wanted better for my child. I saw several Welsh friends attend English universities and just did not do well because their whole education has been Welsh only and they struggled to write academically in English. I wanted more for my daughter than that.

Wow, then those of us who came to the UK for uni having never even visited an English-speaking country before, let alone speak English to someone other than a teacher, we must all be lost causes...

How do you think international students manage at an English uni? I didn't know how to write academically in English either. 31% of the student body at my university, made up of EU and international students, didn't write academic English.

I did well at uni because I applied myself, not because I'd been educated in English at school. I spoke awful English when I arrived, struggled for a few months and was then fine. I got 89% in my final essay at uni.

Your daughter's school sounds truly awful, so I do agree with you, that particular attitude should not be tolerated ever.

But parents aren't doing their kids any harm by sending them to school in a different language than the one they will use at university. That's just called narrow-mindedness.