Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

999 replies

Builtthiscityonsausagerolls · 25/11/2021 21:29

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

OP posts:
ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 11:53

Because men are so nice! And never hostile! As a group it’s definitely the characteristic they’re most known for.

What ho @hotmeatymilk. Depressing, innit - all the internalised misogyny & male behaviour apologists popping in purely to scold OP for her 'rudeness' to Random Man & pretending that perceiving threat via body language isn't a Thing for women, now that they want to have a go at OP for not placing a man's feelings above her perfect right to converse solely with her pal.

cupatay · 26/11/2021 11:54

@Shodan

This thread is funny.

OP: This thing happened. I'm Welsh and this man displayed hostility towards me.
Some posters : OMG THAT'S AWFUL, THE ENGLISH ARE ALL THICK XENOPHOBES.
Other posters: This thing happened, some Welsh people displayed hostility.
Some posters: LIKE FUCK DID YOU, NO WAY DID THAT HAPPEN.

Nailed it! GrinGrinGrin
EileenGC · 26/11/2021 11:54

I don’t think everyone understands the intricacies of minority languages co-existing with dominant languages. Especially when the dominant one has gone through periods of being imposed by the government as the only accepted language nationwide.

I come from Spain where there is a similar situation to the UK. Spanish is the main language but there are 3 co-official languages as well: Galician, Basque and Catalan/Valencian.

From 1939 until the 70’s there was a fascist dictatorship which meant anything not purely Spanish was ‘bad’, and forbidden. That’s a whole generation of people banned from speaking the co-official languages - which for many was their first native language as well.

Children didn’t learn it at school. People couldn’t speak it at work, at church, at a birthday party - for fear of being reported or arrested for having gone against the law.

The languages survived because many families kept speaking it at home, especially in rural towns and villages. When the democracy was established, there was a big push for these languages to be revived again. However many of my friends have only spoken Valencian with their grandparents, as their parents never became fully fluent in anything other than Spanish.

Yet even today you get Spanish ‘superiority’ from people who come to holiday on the coast, and get annoyed when the staff in shops speak Valencian as the default language. ‘It’s a Spanish shop, they should speak Spanish here’. (Staff will of course swap to Spanish when asked because it would be illegal not to).

They get annoyed when you need to achieve fluent Valencian to get a job in a school, a hospital, the post office, the police, or in the civil service. They get annoyed when they enrol their children in a local school and the newsletters are in Valencian, or the kids need to sit exams in it. They’re Spanish - they deserve an exclusively Spanish service on Spanish soil Hmm

You go to say, Madrid with your friends - whom you’ve never spoken Spanish with in your entire life - and people tell you to stop speaking Valencian because you’re not in Valencia anymore. Sure, because crossing the county border makes me want to speak a different language to my friends or family.

Just because I’m fully fluent in both languages doesn’t mean I shall ditch the minority language when in a Spanish-only speaking area, so I’m not ‘rude’ to people there.

That’s how minority languages are lost, that’s how you oppress speakers of that minority language. By telling them their language is inferior and would you please mind switching to English when not in Wales, because it’s rude not to.

We need to fight to preserve minority languages because a huge chunk of our cultural identity comes from them. Art, literature, so much history and tradition will be lost if minority languages aren’t seen as NORMAL everywhere in the country. It should be NORMAL to hear Welsh, and Gaelic, and Irish, anywhere in the UK. People shouldn’t feel ashamed or judged or feel like they’ll be ‘othered’ if they don’t speak English in the UK. The UK isn’t just England. It’s this diverse mix of cultures and languages that everybody benefits from and plays a part in, regardless of how ‘Englishly-superior’ they feel.

Tabbacus · 26/11/2021 11:57

@ChargingBuck

Yes exactly this. If you'd started with speaking Welsh then I'm sure he wouldn't have given a shiny shit.

Oh I see.
So, if an English stranger sitting on a train believed OP could only speak Welsh, that's "allowed".
But as soon as he knows she's at least bilingual, & one of her languages is English ... she's committed a social outrage by not speaking English, for a some strange man's benefit?

Can you genuinely not perceive how insular, demanding, & anglo-centric that is, @Tabbacus?

Have you ever been abroad? Did you speak English while you were there? OMG HOW RUDE ARE YOU?!!!
See how ridiculous it is? You can't berate people for speaking in whatever language they choose to express themselves in ...

Or maybe instead of just extracting a small part of my post, read the rest of it? Or my post after that one? Have you tried reading English, might be a good start.
MajesticWhine · 26/11/2021 11:57

That's awful. You should report him.

herecomesthsun · 26/11/2021 11:57

@WalkingOnTheCracks

Os treisiodd y gelyn fy ngwlad tan ei droed,
Mae hen iaith y Cymry mor fyw ag erioed,

Now this part of the national anthem does in fact refer to the English

whitehorsesdonotlie · 26/11/2021 11:57

Blimey, why should op change the language she speaks for a stranger? She was with a friend, they weren't excluding anyone...

No idea why the bloke's attitude changed, but that's his problem, not yours.

dwinsiaradcymraeg · 26/11/2021 11:59

@EileenGC

I don’t think everyone understands the intricacies of minority languages co-existing with dominant languages. Especially when the dominant one has gone through periods of being imposed by the government as the only accepted language nationwide.

I come from Spain where there is a similar situation to the UK. Spanish is the main language but there are 3 co-official languages as well: Galician, Basque and Catalan/Valencian.

From 1939 until the 70’s there was a fascist dictatorship which meant anything not purely Spanish was ‘bad’, and forbidden. That’s a whole generation of people banned from speaking the co-official languages - which for many was their first native language as well.

Children didn’t learn it at school. People couldn’t speak it at work, at church, at a birthday party - for fear of being reported or arrested for having gone against the law.

The languages survived because many families kept speaking it at home, especially in rural towns and villages. When the democracy was established, there was a big push for these languages to be revived again. However many of my friends have only spoken Valencian with their grandparents, as their parents never became fully fluent in anything other than Spanish.

Yet even today you get Spanish ‘superiority’ from people who come to holiday on the coast, and get annoyed when the staff in shops speak Valencian as the default language. ‘It’s a Spanish shop, they should speak Spanish here’. (Staff will of course swap to Spanish when asked because it would be illegal not to).

They get annoyed when you need to achieve fluent Valencian to get a job in a school, a hospital, the post office, the police, or in the civil service. They get annoyed when they enrol their children in a local school and the newsletters are in Valencian, or the kids need to sit exams in it. They’re Spanish - they deserve an exclusively Spanish service on Spanish soil Hmm

You go to say, Madrid with your friends - whom you’ve never spoken Spanish with in your entire life - and people tell you to stop speaking Valencian because you’re not in Valencia anymore. Sure, because crossing the county border makes me want to speak a different language to my friends or family.

Just because I’m fully fluent in both languages doesn’t mean I shall ditch the minority language when in a Spanish-only speaking area, so I’m not ‘rude’ to people there.

That’s how minority languages are lost, that’s how you oppress speakers of that minority language. By telling them their language is inferior and would you please mind switching to English when not in Wales, because it’s rude not to.

We need to fight to preserve minority languages because a huge chunk of our cultural identity comes from them. Art, literature, so much history and tradition will be lost if minority languages aren’t seen as NORMAL everywhere in the country. It should be NORMAL to hear Welsh, and Gaelic, and Irish, anywhere in the UK. People shouldn’t feel ashamed or judged or feel like they’ll be ‘othered’ if they don’t speak English in the UK. The UK isn’t just England. It’s this diverse mix of cultures and languages that everybody benefits from and plays a part in, regardless of how ‘Englishly-superior’ they feel.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 11:59

@rwalker

To notice his so called body language you must of been looking at him .

So from his point of view you looked at him then changed language the only conclusion I would of come to if I were him is that you were taking about me .

Just comes across as extremely rude to me .

Nonsense @rwalker.

I never look directly at male strangers who I am automatically risk-assessing. Peripheral vision & body language are marvellous assets. If you cannot understand that, I suggest you go & do a martial arts course.

If you pick one of the well-rounded, personal-development centred ones like Wu Shu Kwan, it will also teach you courtesy, modesty, & humility.

Traits you seem deficient in, going by your expectation that you are entitled to have strangers converse only in your native tongue in your presence. And that everything is all about you.

ganivet · 26/11/2021 11:59

Bravo @EileenGC. As a Catalan speaker, I agree 100% with your post. The monolingual belief that minority languages only exist para joder seems to be universal.

MobyDicksTinyCanoe · 26/11/2021 12:00

If I was sat with someone and they suddenly switched language id think they were talking about me.....if id been engaged in conversation with them id think they were talking about me and were also extremely rude.

coffeecats · 26/11/2021 12:03

But who has actually said the OP (or anyone) should change her language for a stranger?

Maybe one person on this thread?

Talk about selective reading.

Otherpeoplesteens · 26/11/2021 12:04

@EileenGC

Thank you so much for sharing that. I really enjoyed it.

India is the same - Hindi imposed on the population by the central government, and even more ridiculous when most of the best schools use English as the language of instruction anyway.

Patuá will become extinct in my lifetime. Apart from my sister who can hardly remember it I am no longer in contact with a single other speaker.

Ddraigmawr · 26/11/2021 12:05

[quote Helendee]@Ddraigmawr

Think what you like, no skin off my nose although it’s rather arrogant to dismiss someone else’s experiences.[/quote]
I'm dismissing your perception. Because it's wrong.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:05

@pinkstinks

mae'r edau hon yn ffycin ysgytwol...
Ofnadwy, innit @pinkstinks.

Yeah - I'm talking about YOU, Cymruphobes.

EileenGC · 26/11/2021 12:06

@ganivet

Bravo *@EileenGC*. As a Catalan speaker, I agree 100% with your post. The monolingual belief that minority languages only exist para joder seems to be universal.
I so wish there was an accurate translation of this expression!!! Grin

(Although be careful, this is an English-speaking forum so you might not want to be rude to fellow readers by using forrin words they won't understand!)

GogLais · 26/11/2021 12:12

Mae] rhai o'r tameidiau o Gymraeg yn tueddu i fod yn fratiog, ond rwy'n cytuno fod yr edau yn ysgytwol

Nid wyf i byth yn dweud dim am neb na fuaswn yn fodlon ei ddweud i'w gwyneb

Mae casineb tuag at y Cymry yn digwydd. Rwyf wedi ei ddioddef fy hun pan yn gweithio yn Lloegr

Onelifeonly · 26/11/2021 12:15

Having now read all your posts OP, I see you didn't have a conversation with this man first. I thought from you describing him as 'friendly' that you had, in which case to suddenly switch languages could have seemed like a snub to him. Or maybe he thought you were open to have a conversation?

As for being hostile- hard to say as it's not clear what he actually did. But people sometimes think I'm angry when I'm just concentrating or thinking about something. It is just my natural expression, but I can't just smile all the time to counteract it.

fabnot · 26/11/2021 12:15

My first language is Welsh and I have many English speaking friends. I live in the North East of Wales. I try and be mindful when in a group of people to not speak Welsh if someone in that group doesn't understand the language. I ask people what they prefer to speak if I'm not sure of their language preference (English or Welsh - nothing else!). Welsh is my first language and I am proud to be bilingual. I try not to exclude others. I wouldn't speak English with a Welsh person if another person wasn't involved with the conversation. I wouldn't expect anyone else in any language to do this either. I don't speak about other people when I know they don't understand. I am most comfortable speaking in my first language.

shinynewapple21 · 26/11/2021 12:15

And you were rude to speak in welsh in England. I would 100% this you didn't want me to hear what you were saying. God I wish people wouldn't speak welsh.

@MrsArchchancellorRidcully is it just Welsh you don't like to hear other people speak in England, or any other Language? To be honest I wouldn't recognise Welsh as a language if I heard it in England - but we have quite a few people locally from what I assume are Eastern European countries, presumably they have moved to the UK recently and the children would speak English in school but as a family I hear them speaking their native language. Similar with families from Asia and the Middle East . Which is why I was surprised at the OP's suggestion that speaking a language other than English on a train in the Midlands would be something that would be particularly noticeable. Although of course people will have different reactions even to things which are not unusual.

ChargingBuck · 26/11/2021 12:16

@QualityChecked

It is quite rude to switch languages to something others can't understand when you're proficient in the "common" language
Au contraire, it's very rude to imagine you are entitled to be included in a perfect stranger's conversation, & believe that those strangers ought to speak your native tongue to each other.
shinynewapple21 · 26/11/2021 12:17

@ivykaty44

The Midlands is a melting pot of languages spoken, it’s be really unusual on a train not to hear different languages spoken by passengers, especially if you’re around Coventry, Wolverhampton and brum

Exactly .

Onceuponatimethen · 26/11/2021 12:17

How incredibly rude. I imagine everyone in this thread speaks English when they are on holiday in France? Even though they learned French at school.

Onceuponatimethen · 26/11/2021 12:17

Perfectly normal and lovely to hear a mix of languages spoken in any country

madisonbridges · 26/11/2021 12:20

That’s how minority languages are lost, that’s how you oppress speakers of that minority language. By telling them their language is inferior and would you please mind switching to English when not in Wales, because it’s rude not to.

I catch trains from my house into Manchester. It passes through several towns where there are high numbers of immigrants. They catch the train and talk their native language all the time. No one cares. I never heard or saw anyone pay any attention much least say their language is inferior!!! I mean where has anyone even implied that, never mind said it.
If people get on the train speaking a foreign language, it doesn't bother me.
If they get on, speak another language, then something happens like someone dropped something and we have to converse in English, then they revert to their language, it doesn't bother me.
If someone gets on the train speaking English, chats and includes me in the conversation and then suddenly starts speaking a foreign language, I might feel rebuffed. (Actually personally I wouldn't because I'd rather not chat to people on the train but I can see how it may effect other people.) But I wouldn't make a song or dance about and neither did this guy
In the same way if I walk into a shop in Wales and they're speaking Welsh, I wouldn't expect them to change to English. But if they're speaking English and change to Welsh that's bloody rude, even if they're speaking Welsh in Wales.
And that has happened to me. And it has happened to other people. And they're not doing it to keep their minority language alive. 🙄