I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

I don't know much about Welsh-English relations, but I can fully relate to OP's experience.

About five years ago I got on a bus in Manchester late in the afternoon. There were three or four high-school age black African boys talking excitedly to one another in forrin. These kids were not in any way threatening - they were in uniform, sitting with backpacks on their laps minding their own business. Apart from the language they could have been anyone's kids but the tension emanating from the other passengers was palpable. Much huffing and puffing, rolling of shifty eyes, passive-aggressive body language and so on. One elderly lady even turned to me and muttered something like "they should bloody speak English if they come over here."

They were speaking Portuguese, and were talking about a class debate they'd just had in school (English language, obviously) on Donald Trump's then-recent election victory and what it meant for transatlantic relationships. When they got up to leave it was all "excuse me" and "could I squeeze past please?" in perfect English.

I don't think you could go from one month's end to the next here without someone posting a video on social media or to the Evening News of xenophobic abuse being hurled at foreigners on public transport in Manchester simply because they are speaking their own language. There was a noticeable step up in it immediately after the referendum too.

@madisonbridges I went to university in Wales. It wasn’t uncommon for this to happen. Some of our friends spoke Welsh though… & weren’t backward about speaking up!

[quote RatsolutelyFabulous]@Texasfucked it really isn’t bollocks about certain Welsh people turning from English to Welsh as soon as English tourists enter a pub or public space. I spent two weeks in Tenby and it happened every night without fail. We were also staying with a good friend that had lived there for 15 years and still had to deal with locals being hostile and changing language when he walked in.

I also went to uni with a friend from Wales who even said herself, that a proportion of Welsh people do change to their mother tongue as soon as English tourists come along. She chose to get into debt to come to uni in England to get away from that “bollocks” as she described it.

It happens both ways, just because you may not of seen or heard it, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.[/quote]
Never happened to me in 20 years.
Quite the reverse - Welsh folk have gone out of their way to include me.

The complainers touting this urban near-myth as if it's a common everyday behaviour directed at them by the fiendish Welsh never seem to consider their own behaviour. Maybe they were snotty, or loud, or patronising, & didn't deserve the courtesy of everyone else accommodating them by switching to the visitor's native tongue.

I I bet my bara brith that none of these monoglots ever bothered to offer the simple courtesy of a "bore da" "os gwelwch yn dda" or a "diolch" to their hosts. It really isn't hard, & is like a magic ticket to a smiling reception & kindly responses.

Just because you've never tried it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen indeed, @RatsolutelyFabulous

@LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester?

It's very common. I don't speak Welsh being from Liverpool, and I find it quite rude when they suddenly switch from English to Welsh.

I don’t deny there was a step up in xenophobia after Brexit. But let’s be clear, Wales (overall) voted for Brexit!

Monolingual English speakers cannot even read their own damn language

I think this thread clearly illustrates the suspicion with which languages other than English are viewed.

@KerryWeaver

I think this thread clearly illustrates the suspicion with which languages other than English are viewed.

Absolutely this!!

I cannot imagine the level of egocentrism someone must possess if their first assumption at someone switching from English to another language is that they're talking about them. [confusion]
I live in a very diverse part of London and if I was hampered by this sort of self-centredness I'd be paranoid all the time.

Yes exactly this. If you'd started with speaking Welsh then I'm sure he wouldn't have given a shiny shit.

Oh I see.
So, if an English stranger sitting on a train believed OP could only speak Welsh, that's "allowed".
But as soon as he knows she's at least bilingual, & one of her languages is English ... she's committed a social outrage by not speaking English, for a some strange man's benefit?

Can you genuinely not perceive how insular, demanding, & anglo-centric that is, @Tabbacus?

Have you ever been abroad? Did you speak English while you were there? OMG HOW RUDE ARE YOU?!!!
See how ridiculous it is? You can't berate people for speaking in whatever language they choose to express themselves in ...

Absolutely loads of Welsh people live in Birmingham, have you ever been or were you just travelling through? You can't walk through Birmingham city centre without hearing several languages spoken, it's one of the nice things about it, but perhaps if you don't know the place coming from somewhere small you wouldn't be aware.
I regularly speak French when out and about in the UK with my family, I've never had an issue, it only takes one person though.

Did you miss the laughing face after 'deep' England.
And yes, I went to university in London. I didn't however speak Welsh when there not knowing any other Welsh speakers, so have no experience of speaking anything else in England other than English.
As you were..

Ironically there are loads of Welsh speakers in London, and Welsh language groups/societies.

@EvenRosesHaveThorns

I've had a few occasions, none recently, of going into a pub or cafe in Wales and a distinctive shift from speaking English to Welsh in a 'hostile', deliberately alienating manner (I will not explain the details for the sake of the few mumsnetters who on this post that will now leap down my throat - just take it from me). Yet I love Wales and hearing the language, so it won't stop me

Speaking your native language in your own country is “hostile” now? Come on!

[quote Nishkin]@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls A friend of mine has a ‘posh’ southern English accent- he and his girlfriend went into a shop in Wales and the two women started talking in Welsh and were slagging him off- he know this because his girlfriend is Welsh - the women were a bit taken aback when she answered them

Cuts both ways I guess[/quote]
Maybe your posh friend was a twat.
Maybe the 2 women were.

Who knows? All I know is that no Welsh speaker has ever done this to me. And I reckon my 20 years living here trumps your posh mate's visit to 1 shop in the anecdata stakes, @Nishkin.

Having said I have never had an issue, people do listen and look, but it's always seemed like interest and not something negative.

Blimey no wonder we're so bad at learning / speaking other languages in this country! Globally it's totally normal to speak more than one language and switch between them depending on the setting and who you're speaking to.

I am Welsh and worked for an organisation with offices in North Wales. Day to day language was Welsh because that happened to be the first language of all of the staff and the majority of customers.

Someone moved from Liverpool and got a job in the office. They were horrified at all the Welsh being spoken and raised a grievance that they were being excluded and therefore bullied by all their colleagues speaking in their mother tongue and not English.

Welsh Language Act is clear that you cannot stop people speaking Welsh at work.

The individual was offered Welsh lessons as part of their role anyway but they “didn’t see why they should” and left with no notice.

All jobs there are advertised as WL only now.

And you were rude to speak in welsh in England.

@MrsArchchancellorRidcully, have you ever been anywhere outside of England?
If you have, did you immediately switch to the native tongue of your host country?
Or did you continue speaking English?

If you have never left England, that might help to explain your insular & blinkered attitude.
If you have, & dared to speak English outside of your own shores, you are not only rude, but a raging hypocrite.

@coffeecats

I don’t deny there was a step up in xenophobia after Brexit. But let’s be clear, Wales (overall) voted for Brexit!

When they did some more analysis on this, it was found that what tipped Wales over into Leave overall, were the votes from the older incomers in the south and east of the country.

And you were rude to speak in welsh in England. I would 100% this you didn't want me to hear what you were saying. God I wish people wouldn't speak welsh.

@MrsArchchancellorRidcully I take is that you never speak English when in Wales. Or in France, Germany, Spain...

I used to live in a different country and had to try and force myself out of that paranoia you get when you don't understand what people are saying (obviously I also tried to learn the language while I was there). And now it doesn't bother me but I did recognise that it was my problem and my weird paranoia and nothing to do with the people around me who we're literally just having a chat.

My kids now go to a very culturally mixed school and I'm good friends with lots of the mums - both solely English speakers and those who speak more than one language. Strangely it's came up a few times with some of the English parents why they don't mix with the other mums and it's generally along the lines of they exclude us/they're always talking amongst themselves etc none of which I find to be true.

So yes in short I think in some parts of this country we're not used to not understanding what people are talking about and we act weirdly when we encounter it.

@Pumperthepumper

And you were rude to speak in welsh in England. I would 100% this you didn't want me to hear what you were saying. God I wish people wouldn't speak welsh.

What about BSL, are we allowed to use that on trains in England?

I doubt it, according to the Blinkered Brigade out in force here @Pumperthepumper.

Supposing an English person couldn't understand your signing, & imagined you were gossiping about them?
HOW VERY DARE YOU be so exclusive. You & your BSL pal need to get over your disability & stop parading your Otherness in public. If you don't have the common decency to effect a miracle cure immediately, you should either stop availing yourself of public transport where the able-bodied might be offended by your language, or keep your hands in your pockets at all times.

@herecomesthsun

o bydded i'r hen iaith barhau

Oi. Are you talking about me?

I cannot imagine the level of egocentrism someone must possess if their first assumption at someone switching from English to another language is that they're talking about them.

I am white and easily pass off as native in the UK, but I am also a fluent Cantonese speaker. Manchester, where I live, has a fairly big Chinese community and I mix with Chinese people or go into Chinese-run businesses probably a tad more often than the average local.

There has been literally once in over thirty years that I've heard someone talking about me in Cantonese, and that was more "fuck me, look at that gweilo" as I loaded chicken feet into a trolley in the supermarket.

As a Spanish person, the only time I was ‘suspicious of languages other than English’ was when I first heard Liverpudlian in a restaurant . I thought it must be Welsh because I couldn’t understand a word of it. It was like “cchhh” and different-sounding vowels and a whole different tone. Also, there is a very strong Scottish dialect which doesn’t sound like English at all to an untrained ear. It sounds much “harder.” I thought it was Danish or something like that.