Page 16 | I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

Autumndays123 · 26/11/2021 08:52

@43leftfeet

Can you imagine if a school in England said all children must speak English at all times and if anyone is caught speaking another language they will be punished? Can you imagine the uproar?

Do you have no idea of the history of this?

Children were expected to speak Welsh at all times and punished for speaking English in schools in Wales.

Welsh hasn't just naturally waned as a language over time - there was a concerted effort by the English to suppress it, which was pretty successful.

If the language is to be kept alive, a conscious effort needs to be made.

Please read my other posts on the matter. Thanks

madisonbridges · 26/11/2021 08:54

I used to live in North Wales. I remember going into a shop and the owner and customer switched from speaking English to Welsh. It did make me feel a bit paranoid that they were speaking about me or they wanted to exclude me. Of course, they might have just decided that they were bored of English and wanted a change! 😏

Anyway, maybe the guy on the train thought similar.

Pumperthepumper · 26/11/2021 08:54

@Autumndays123 what? I’m not Welsh, I’m in Scotland!

It’s quite telling you can’t answer the question about these punishments your daughter supposedly got.

In my school we teach Gaelic and Spanish and in both of those classes the children have to use that language to ask to go to the toilet. It’s a natural way to include language in the classroom.

And again; if there were two pupils alienating themselves from the rest of their class, I would speak to their parents about that concern.

Livelovebehappy · 26/11/2021 08:55

He definitely thought you were speaking about him. You were talking with him in English, then following the conversation, you turn to your friend and switch to Welsh? Obviously his first thought would be you were switching to a different language to speak about him. He’s not to know that you ‘feel more comfortable’ talking in Welsh. I think you sound to have more of a problem with the issue than he does, and were possibly looking to be offended.

OvernightBloats · 26/11/2021 08:56

Interpretation is everything.
You interpreted that he was 'hostile' but there are many reasons why he could not have a contented face. He could be having a bad day and he was thinking about this. He could have a naturally scowling face when he relaxes. He could have been trying to listen to music but couldn't hear it because of you talking. Was he trying to read but couldn't concentrate?
How can you be sure it was because you were speaking in Welsh? He could have been annoyed that you were speaking constantly for the whole journey and found it irritating and distracting.
He could be bilingual himself. Maybe he spoke Welsh, understood what you were saying and didn't like what you were saying?
I think you are making too many assumptions.

Autumndays123 · 26/11/2021 08:56

What a world we live in. So the logic on this post is as follows:

OP is Welsh and should absolutely be allowed to use her mother tongue in any situation. It does not matter if she switched languages mid conversation. It is no one's business and it is her right, as she feels more comfortable talking socially in this language and it can be exhausting using a second language all the time (all fair point IMO BTW)

BUT if a child of any nationality is talking their mother tongue on a playground in a school in Wales then that should not be encouraged. Parents will be spoken to and concerns will be raised on the matter.

I hope laying it out like that helps people see how contradictory they are.

5128gap · 26/11/2021 08:57

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

Well parts of the Midlands are very diverse, and its inhabitants particularly in the cities, are very used to multiple languages spoken around them, so I'd be very surprised if it was that alone. Perhaps it was because you engaged them in conversation and then affectively shut them out again that made them think you were rude? I don't think it was personally, but perhaps they did. Theres also a bit of a stereotype about Welsh people speaking Welsh in front of English tourists and some paranoia that its in order to be rude about them, so maybe that too. I certainly don't think its a thing in general though.

5128gap · 26/11/2021 08:57

Sorry quoted OP in error there.

HesterShaw1 · 26/11/2021 08:57

I'm still not clear why some posters were so insistent the two women were obliged to ensure a random man understood their private conversation.

Why did they owe him anything? 🤔

Autumndays123 · 26/11/2021 08:58

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Autumndays123 what? I’m not Welsh, I’m in Scotland!

It’s quite telling you can’t answer the question about these punishments your daughter supposedly got.

In my school we teach Gaelic and Spanish and in both of those classes the children have to use that language to ask to go to the toilet. It’s a natural way to include language in the classroom.

And again; if there were two pupils alienating themselves from the rest of their class, I would speak to their parents about that concern.[/quote]
I have answered the questions? I answered them earlier. I'm not repeating myself because you can't be bothered to read my posts.

Please could you tell me the local authority you work for. I'd like to share your posts with them.

Livelovebehappy · 26/11/2021 08:59

And it’s pretty common in a work place too for a policy to be enforced with this type of thing. At my workplace, a large bank, we have had incidences where Asian workers use their own language when talking amongst themselves in an open plan office, who have been pulled up by management not to do this. It’s classed as excluding other (predominantly English speaking) workers.

TheAntiGardener · 26/11/2021 09:01

He’s not to know that you ‘feel more comfortable’ talking in Welsh.

This is the problem in a nutshell - pure ignorance about what it’s like to speak more than one language, and it has been evidenced over and over again on this thread. I’m not sure why a stranger’s ignorance is op’s problem.

BungleandGeorge · 26/11/2021 09:02

I’m Welsh. You’re presumably as aware as I am that speaking Welsh is used as a tactic in some areas to specifically exclude the English. Xenophobia if you like. Many people recognise Welsh, even some from the Midlands which does after all border Wales. Although not really the parts where Welsh is generally an everyday language.

Livelovebehappy · 26/11/2021 09:02

@HesterShaw1

I'm still not clear why some posters were so insistent the two women were obliged to ensure a random man understood their private conversation.

Why did they owe him anything? 🤔

Op wasn’t saying this. She was saying his attitude changed when they started speaking Welsh, and was projecting that they felt he was somehow being hostile or prejudice. Posters are explaining possible reasons for his reaction.

HarrietsChariot · 26/11/2021 09:04

If you are in a country it's common courtesy to try to speak their language. Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England. Some countries have multiple languages of course, in Scotland it's appropriate to speak English or Gaelic or Scots.

It's incredibly rude, not to mention arrogant, to not even attempt to speak the correct language for the country you are in.

Fullyhuman · 26/11/2021 09:06

You were not rude!

(I’ve also heard plenty of Welsh spoken in Chester)

Pumperthepumper · 26/11/2021 09:07

@Autumndays123 I’m so tempted to share which LA I work for, can you imagine? ‘An anonymous person on mumsnet who claims she works for you has said she would follow your policies on how to deal with alienation among peers’ - do you get laughed at a lot?

You can’t tell me any punishment your daughter had at her Welsh school. She had to ask to go to the toilet in Welsh, and that’s it. You need to get a grip.

Fullyhuman · 26/11/2021 09:07

“HarrietsChariot

If you are in a country it's common courtesy to try to speak their language. Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England. Some countries have multiple languages of course, in Scotland it's appropriate to speak English or Gaelic or Scots.

It's incredibly rude, not to mention arrogant, to not even attempt to speak the correct language for the country you are in.“

So if you are abroad with your family, you all speak the local language TO EACH OTHER?! Wherever you go? Polyglot kudos to you!

TheViewFromTheCheapSeats · 26/11/2021 09:10

I often use another language in public with my family. It’s area dependent I find.
Some areas not an eyelid is batted, go to less diverse area and it’s noticed. I forget usually people react, unless I go to certain areas. Personally I enjoy switching back to accentless English in response to comments like ‘can… YOU… speeeeak…. Eng-lish’

43leftfeet · 26/11/2021 09:11

@HarrietsChariot

If you are in a country it's common courtesy to try to speak their language. Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England. Some countries have multiple languages of course, in Scotland it's appropriate to speak English or Gaelic or Scots.

It's incredibly rude, not to mention arrogant, to not even attempt to speak the correct language for the country you are in.

Sorry but this is xenophobic bollocks. She's talking about a private conversation with her friend.

And anyway, the OP was in the UK, where there are multiple languages recognised, including Welsh. There is no "official language", so by your logic, Welsh is perfectly acceptable as one of the languages of the UK.

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 26/11/2021 09:12

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt I experienced overt hostility in a town in Snowdonia when I went into a shop chatting in English. It was palpable. Never experienced anything similar in my life!

TheViewFromTheCheapSeats · 26/11/2021 09:13

I laughed out loud at the speaking English comment.
I once had a complaint made about me at work, formally, for ‘always talking other languages and excluding people’. This was in response to me talking to recently arrived nursery children in their native language to reassure them, scared on their first days at an English school!

CounsellorTroi · 26/11/2021 09:14

@Autumndays123. You posted that your primary age child had been punished for not speaking Welsh at school. I posted that I didn’t believe you. You then posted a Telegraph link I couldn’t read as it was behind a paywall. You then posted a link about a school which was about a Welsh medium secondary school and it was to that I was alluding in my subsequent reply. When you asked me what on earth I was going on about.

HomeSliceKnowsBest · 26/11/2021 09:15

Yes it's like this all over England OP. We are all horrifically racist especially to the Welsh

Offmyfence · 26/11/2021 09:16

@HarrietsChariot

If you are in a country it's common courtesy to try to speak their language. Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England. Some countries have multiple languages of course, in Scotland it's appropriate to speak English or Gaelic or Scots.

It's incredibly rude, not to mention arrogant, to not even attempt to speak the correct language for the country you are in.

😂 😂 😂