I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Autumndays123 I’m so tempted to share which LA I work for, can you imagine? ‘An anonymous person on mumsnet who claims she works for you has said she would follow your policies on how to deal with alienation among peers’ - do you get laughed at a lot?

You can’t tell me any punishment your daughter had at her Welsh school. She had to ask to go to the toilet in Welsh, and that’s it. You need to get a grip.[/quote]
I think more along the lines of 'anonymous teacher tries to stop children from speaking their native language in private conversations'. The fact you don't see how disgusting that is speaks volumes

I am English but have a friend who is Welsh, that I met in holiday in Wales. I feel very ignorant that I cannot say anything in her language other than "Hello" and "How are you?".
I've been out with her when she has met friends and spoken to them in Welsh. I didn't feel annoyed or hostile. But some people do for some reason.
Similarly I have friends of other backgrounds than British English so might hear them speak Spanish, Polish, French or Urdu, for example. I know that sometimes 'our' language doesn't allow them the scope of words to express what they want to.

No but I've experienced some hostility in North Wales from daring to speak English. There are dickheads from all nationalities.

My DH family from the south Wales know about 3 words. It's not a Welsh/English thing between countries but between north and south Wales too.

@LittleDandelionClock

Nope. People don't often speak Welsh in Chester. I know coz I bloody lived there for years, and only recently moved. It's practically bloody Merseyside, and more people sound scouse than Welsh!

I have heard people speaking Welsh in Chester

Loads of towns and cities are close-ish to Wales, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, Parts of South Shropshire and Herefordshire. And they don't speak Welsh. Even some of WALES don't speak Welsh. Rhyl, for example, and some other parts.

I know families in Rhyl where the language spoken at home is Welsh

I find some people on this thread so weird.

My native language is French though I speak English and a few other languages fluently.

If in a big group of people I know and/or I am interacting with I will use the common language (which isn’t necessarily the local language and is usually English) but if I am on public transportation and talking to a friend, I will speak in the language we fancy speaking in and that work best for us. I wouldn’t speak English with a French friend just because I am sitting in a subway in England sitting across from English speaking people who might want to eavesdrop and ensure I am not speaking about them. How odd.

I have met many many British and Americans in my time abroad and have NEVER seen two English speakers speaking the local language when abroad together even if they know it and would (potentially) speak it to the locals.

Most native English speakers seem to have this very weird obsession with people speaking English around them whether in an English speaking country or not as to not be rude. We already have to learn it as kids so as to be inclusive (when English speaking countries simply don’t put as much effort into learning new languages) so it’s extremely irritating when people imply speaking your native language with someone of the same country as you is rude even though nobody else is involved in that conversation.

I already regularly have to speak English to Spanish friends (when I am fluent in Spanish) just to include the one English person who might only speak English so there is no way I will speak English when I don’t have to just so strangers I am not addressing can feel included in a conversation they have no reason to listen to or partake in.

I’m a non native England speaker and have never experienced this in England when chatting in my native language. Not that I’ve noticed anyway.
I did experience a lot of hostility when speaking English to an English friend in France.

[quote CounsellorTroi]@Autumndays123. You posted that your primary age child had been punished for not speaking Welsh at school. I posted that I didn’t believe you. You then posted a Telegraph link I couldn’t read as it was behind a paywall. You then posted a link about a school which was about a Welsh medium secondary school and it was to that I was alluding in my subsequent reply. When you asked me what on earth I was going on about.[/quote]
I give up. I truly truly do. I told you I wasn't doing all of your research for you. I posted one link, you couldn't access that. I then googled it again and posted the second link that came up which involved children being punished for speaking English. What are you looking for? An article written by my daughter for the newspaper? They are called examples.

I forgot how infuriating it can be arguing with people who are so ignorant and uneducated. I give up to save my own sanity

I'm not a native English speaker. My native language is one of the Slavic languages. I commute to London daily. I've never experienced hostility, not even a smidge of interest from other passengers when I spoke my language to someone - either another passenger or on the phone.

I know exactly what you’re talking about op. You weren’t rude.

I find it funny how many people tell anecdotes of people switching to Welsh from English after a non-Welsh speaker enters the shop/room/bar. 1) How do you know what language they were using BEFORE you arrived? 2) It's very very common and natural in bilinguals and multilinguals (of all language combinations, not just a Welsh thing) to switch between languages, sometimes mid-sentence. It's called code-switching, look it up. It's almost certainly not anything to do with the random stranger they haven't even noticed enter the room! Coming back to the OP, who knows why this person got funny with you. They probably did take your switch to Welsh as a slight, but I wouldn't let it bother you!

The irony of a Welsh person complaining about feeling hostility in England whilst speaking Welsh. Lol.

@Autumndays123 oooooorrr ‘I’m concerned that your kid only has one friend, and only then because of a shared language. What can we do to help them be less alienated in their peer group?’

How’s your daughter now, is she able to ask to use the toilet in Welsh?

@Livelovebehappy

You were talking with him in English, then following the conversation, you turn to your friend and switch to Welsh?

No, they didn’t talk to him at all. They spoke to the conductor.

OP I think you absolutely do have the right to speak whatever tongue you choose wherever you are...except maybe in official circumstances where the language that the business is being conducted in is prescribed by an official.....BUT I also get that if you did switch languages, then the friendly stranger might well feel that it was because of him and therefore feel uncomfortable and defensive. Neither of you are BU.
Its an extreme example but when my husband was in hospital, many of the lovely staff were Philipino. They would stand at the desk and speak together in their own language, at the same time, quite rightly, watching the very ill patients. It could give the impression that they were discussing the patients and when you are worried and trying to glean every bit of information you can about what is wrong with a loved one....it did feel unpleasant.

@HarrietsChariot

If you are in a country it's common courtesy to try to speak their language. Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England. Some countries have multiple languages of course, in Scotland it's appropriate to speak English or Gaelic or Scots.

It's incredibly rude, not to mention arrogant, to not even attempt to speak the correct language for the country you are in.

@HarrietsChariot, Why would I speak to my daughter, mother or sister or friend in English when we would normally chat in Welsh?

If you and your friend/partner/parent/child were in Pakistan would you speak to each other in Urdu?

I forgot how infuriating it can be arguing with people who are so ignorant and uneducated. I give up to save my own sanity

Only people who know they are on shaky ground resort to personal abuse while arguing.

I’m more bothered about the fact that so few of you seem to know that Chester is ON the border and many parts of Wales have a CH post code etc. Of course we hear Welsh here! I have to drive in and out of Wales to get to work 😂

@HarrietsChariot

If you are in a country it's common courtesy to try to speak their language. Given the OP is fluent in English she should speak English in England. Some countries have multiple languages of course, in Scotland it's appropriate to speak English or Gaelic or Scots.

It's incredibly rude, not to mention arrogant, to not even attempt to speak the correct language for the country you are in.

And I presume that when you are on holiday abroad, you speak to your English friends and family in Spanish/Portuguese/Greek at all times, even when out in public and holding a private conversation between you?

I've got to say, that's mightily impressive. I've got a Masters in two foreign languages, I work in foreign languages, I've worked abroad in 3 different countries and even I would struggle sometimes to avoid slipping back into English when I'm on holiday with other English friends, especially when you're tired or stressed. Well done you!

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Autumndays123 oooooorrr ‘I’m concerned that your kid only has one friend, and only then because of a shared language. What can we do to help them be less alienated in their peer group?’

How’s your daughter now, is she able to ask to use the toilet in Welsh?[/quote]
Nope I moved her out of Wales and she is absolutely thriving in an English school, where she can speak in whatever language she likes and parents are spoken to. Amazing isn't it. This is one mumsnet thread I'm really hoping the daily mail get hold of because your attitude is quite frankly, disgusting. To think that a child only has 'one friend' because they dare to speak English on the playground when talking to an international student is appalling. I'm finding it difficult to articulate how awful that behaviour is.

@CounsellorTroi

I forgot how infuriating it can be arguing with people who are so ignorant and uneducated. I give up to save my own sanity

Only people who know they are on shaky ground resort to personal abuse while arguing.

If you genuinely cannot see why your posts are uneducated and ignorant then that really is something you should explore in more depth. I'm afraid I haven't the time to explain or spoon-feed everything to you

@Autumndays123 you’re finding it difficult because you know it’s nonsense. That’s why you’re having to grasp your way back up on your high horse.

Sorry your daughter couldn’t grasp Welsh, that’s a shame.

This thread is weird for several reasons -

1. Has the OP never made this mystical and far-flung journey from Wales to Birmingham aka “deep England” before?

2. Is she saying this is the first time she has spoken Welsh in England?

3. Was she born yesterday?

4. if she had her back to the stranger in the train, how did she even know he “turned hostile?”

5. Had the OP ever spent 5 minutes in any city in England where you walk 5 minutes down the street and will probably hear various languages spoken and nobody even gives it a second thought?

As I say, a strange thread and it’s as if the OP has never left Wales bar venturing to the eastern side of Chester

I speak Spanish sometimes on public transport and it’s never invited to me that anyone gives a hoot.

I think some people just need attention and look for issues in thin air, tbh.

OMG! The shelves in Sainsbury's are talking about me!!

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Autumndays123 you’re finding it difficult because you know it’s nonsense. That’s why you’re having to grasp your way back up on your high horse.

Sorry your daughter couldn’t grasp Welsh, that’s a shame.[/quote]
Are you for real? She completed her primary educt in Wales and can speak Welsh fluently. I moved her because unfortunately having an entire education in Welsh only is only going to be beneficial if you choose to never leave Wales. I wanted more for her than that, particularly as unemployment and poor pay are rife in Wales. It has absolutely nothing to do with her not being able to 'grasp Welsh'. However, I'm also starting to doubt you're a teacher. What kind of self respecting teacher sits on mumsnet expressing their xenophobic practices at 9.45am on a Friday. Hmmm

@Ddraigmawr

OMG! The shelves in Sainsbury's are talking about me!!

😂😂😂