I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

Often people look or stare out of curiosity (for want of a better word). Especially if people are conversing in one language and then suddenly switch to another. People are naturally nosy. Of course the odd one out of every dozen or so (depending where you are) might be thinking xenophobic/racist thoughts - same in every country.

[quote CounsellorTroi]@Autumndays123 this thing about Welsh mandatory jobs is nonsense. I worked in the civil service for 30 years including in recruitment and while some jobs were advertised as Welsh desirable very few were mandatory. My organisation had as many non Welsh speakers as Welsh speakers.[/quote]
I'm really not going to discuss this anymore with you. You literally have no argument and no evidence in any of your points. Imagine telling someone you don't believe their life experiences because it doesn't sound right without doing any research at all into whether it could be correct 😂 how embarrassing.

@HesterShaw1

I think it's s peculiarly English trait to get so get up about, because the overwhelming majority of English people only speak English. In so many other countries, people speak two, three or more languages.

I think do too, it’s a very narrow world view. Especially as there are other native languages in Britain, not just English.

Ysgol Morgan Llwyd is a Welsh medium school and I assume parents have a choice as to whether they send their children there.

[quote Autumndays123]@CounsellorTroi as a Welsh person I am of course familiar with the Welsh not, I'm not sure why you've brought it up though. Are you trying to suggest because people were punished for speaking Welsh in the 19th century it has absolutely anything to do with children getting punished for speaking English in 2021?

Nevertheless, I will explain. The 2011 census showed the around 19% of people in Wales could speak Welsh. In an effort to increase the number of speakers, the Welsh government changed the language of the schools (again we are talking about the north) and pushed for Welsh to be at the forefront. Whilst I agree this is important to stop the language dying out, they attempted to do it through coercion. The punishments my daughter received for speaking English (other than being bullied because English was 'naughty') included being excluded from playtime, being refused to use the toilet until she asked in Welsh (as reported in the article I linked) and I was spoken to in parents evening quite severely because the teacher was 'concerned' my child was speaking in English on the playground with another international child.

Other examples of trying to force out the English language included making many, many jobs Welsh mandatory. This meant that regardless of whether you had amazing skills and experience, if you could not speak Welsh, you would not get the job. The only places you wouldn't see this practice was universities, hospitals, the police etc. Although I do believe the police were moving towards that when I left. I remember it being most frustrating for English students who attended Welsh universities and then could not find employment afterwards because the basic Welsh language skills they learned were not 'good enough'.

Before arguing with strangers on the internet and disagreeing with their experiences based on what appears to be absolutely nothing, why don't you do a bit of research and try and equip yourself with a better knowledge on the subject.[/quote]
So she had to learn a Welsh phrase to ask to go to the toilet? That doesn’t sound like a punishment, it sounds like a natural way to include welsh language in the classroom.

@Autumndays123 I would also have spoken to you about my concerns if I thought your daughter was alienating herself from her peer group.

@dropitlikeitsloth

I really don’t get some of the comments here. OP’s first language is Welsh, why shouldn’t she speak it, she can switch to it whenever she wants to too.

I think this is all quite telling. If someone’s first language was Polish and they switched back into Polish after speaking to the conductor in English (which they had to, you know, to communicate) I’m sure people wouldn’t be making the comments that it was rude etc.

People are used to different languages in English due to immigration and tourism but I often hear about this attitude when it comes to Welsh. So what’s the difference?

I honestly think it’s because people are ignorant of the fact Welsh is a first language for a lot of people, people mistakenly see it as only a second language like it is used as a ‘secret code’ language or solely learnt and used to talk without being understood.

You often hear people say all huffy ‘then they changed to Welsh’ well yes, of course they spoke to you in English, so you’d understand, then changed back to their native language. You wouldn’t go to Germany and get put out because they reverted back to German.

There’s a lot of ignorance about our own (non-Anglo Saxon) native languages in this country it seems.

Carry on speaking Welsh OP it’s a beautiful language, the original language of a lot of ancient Britain and I for one don’t want to lose it for the sake of an ignorant few.

I could not agree more with this.

@dropitlikeitsloth. I have experienced the switch from English to Welsh in shops in North Wales on hearing my English accent. When I then speak in Welsh at the till, the response is often verbally/visually a variation of "shit". I think the Welsh language is precious and it's great to see it much more widely used than when I was a teenager. That doesn't mean that I can't understand why some people would view this situation as rude.

I think it's s peculiarly English trait to get so get up about, because the overwhelming majority of English people only speak English. In so many other countries, people speak two, three or more languages.

Really? Just English? 38% of Britons speak a second language, vs 54% of Europeans in general. 29% of the Welsh population speak Welsh (2021 numbers, including L1 and L2 speakers)

This idea that 'the english' are xenophobic is ridiculous given quite how many of us are immigrants (including myself 2 generations back).

I've worked many places, and in all of them, it would be considered a bit rude if 3 people were having a conversation in one language that they all spoke, then 2 broke off to chat in a different one. I've been in meetings where people have apologised for doing so, but it being quicker to speak in a 3rd language, can they just sort this and then switch back, and we've all been absolutely fine with it obviously, but even the people doing it thought to explain what was going on first.

So she had to learn a Welsh phrase to ask to go to the toilet? That doesn’t sound like a punishment, it sounds like a natural way to include welsh language in the classroom.

Well yes. A child who has been sent to a Welsh medium school is going to struggle in classes if they don’t have enough Welsh to ask to go to the toilet.

It would look rude to switch to another language when you can clearly speak English, you could be saying "God he's ugly isn't he". I've worked in places where there's been people from other countries, I was sat in the office and one of our other work friends came in to speak to my office mate, she was asking her something specific that didn't involve me but did it in English, it's clearly easier to speak their own language so I questioned why they don't just speak Greek. They replied "we wouldn't speak Greek as you can't understand and might think we are talking about you, it's rude". They said they talk English if someone English is present, it's just good manners. They had a point.

@CounsellorTroi

Ysgol Morgan Llwyd is a Welsh medium school and I assume parents have a choice as to whether they send their children there.

What on earth are you talking about? Unfortunately when you live in North Wales you must still go to school. If you live in the middle of Anglesey for example, do you expect children to get to England every day for school? Bonkers. I have no issue with Welsh being taught at schools, I take issue with children being punished for speaking English in their free time and on the playground. That school in the article I linked are quite frankly, disgusting. You cannot threaten a child with expulsion for speaking English (which may be their mother tongue btw) on the playground in their free time. If you think that is acceptable, which it appears you do, then unfortunately you are an example of the type of person I explained in my original post, who shun English speakers. Can you imagine if a school in England said all children must speak English at all times and if anyone is caught speaking another language they will be punished? Can you imagine the uproar?

Only 23% of schools in Wales are Welsh medium. Only 20% identify as Welsh speakers. If such stats were occurring in certain other countries we don’t like, it would probably be pointed to by many as evidence of cultural genocide.The UK government are certainly world leaders in hypocrisy.

@QualityChecked

It is quite rude to switch languages to something others can't understand when you're proficient in the "common" language

Others being random strangers on a train? Why do they have any need to be able to understand the OP's conversation with her friend?

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Autumndays123 I would also have spoken to you about my concerns if I thought your daughter was alienating herself from her peer group.[/quote]
Really? I'm assuming you are a teacher? So tell me, if you had two international students in an English classroom and caught them speaking their preferred language on the playground together, would you express your concerns to their parents? Genuine question? Or is it only an issue requiring punishment if that language in English?

A friend of mine is a teacher who moved back to the UK after teaching in South Africa for years. In S. Africa, it was the norm for the DC she taught to have several languages from a young age, that was the norm.

Back in the UK, she was teaching a child who was making simple grammatical mistakes that looked like perhaps he was applying grammar rules from another language, so she asked him if he spoke another language - he was adamant that no, he only spoke English.

She later found out that in fact, he did speak his parents mother tongue fluently. He'd been too ashamed to admit it.

This shocked her and she reflected how different this was from the DC she was used to teaching in SA - asking if they spoke another language wasn't a loaded question there, just a matter of fact, but it was over here.

Well done all the people on this thread telling the OP she's rude, or she must have imagined the hostility, for providing a live demonstration of how xenophobia and racism works, although I doubt it was your intent.

@CounsellorTroi

So she had to learn a Welsh phrase to ask to go to the toilet? That doesn’t sound like a punishment, it sounds like a natural way to include welsh language in the classroom.

Well yes. A child who has been sent to a Welsh medium school is going to struggle in classes if they don’t have enough Welsh to ask to go to the toilet.

At four years old? Careful yours and the posters you quoted xenophobic masks are starting to slip. Your posts stink of 'get out of our country if you can't speak Welsh'

@Autumndays123 yes, at four years old. Why not? What better age is there to learn a language?

And yes, I’ve got several multi-lingual kids in my class. If they were alienating themselves from their peers i would express concern to their parents.

What other punishments did you daughter get?

@Cam77

Only 23% of schools in Wales are Welsh medium. Only 20% identify as Welsh speakers. If such stats were occurring in certain other countries we don’t like, it would probably be pointed to by many as evidence of cultural genocide.The UK government are certainly world leaders in hypocrisy.

That'll be the whole of Wales 🙄 as I said several times, the issues are in the depth of North Wales. The plain ignorance on these posts are mind blowing

I think if it was just you and your welsh speaking friend involved in this conversation then there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. If it was you, friend and nice guy sitting across conversing then you 2 switched to welsh it would be a bit rude. I live in north wales and my children, partner, wider family etc are all welsh speaking but I cant speak more than the pretty basics, so out of respect when i'm around its all english. You never know though the guy could of been in awe at your accent because i bloody love it!!

Can you imagine if a school in England said all children must speak English at all times and if anyone is caught speaking another language they will be punished? Can you imagine the uproar?

Do you have no idea of the history of this?

Children were expected to speak Welsh at all times and punished for speaking English in schools in Wales.

Welsh hasn't just naturally waned as a language over time - there was a concerted effort by the English to suppress it, which was pretty successful.

If the language is to be kept alive, a conscious effort needs to be made.

The conclusion I’ve come to over the years (supported by this thread) is that some people are simply offended by the very fact of other people existing differently to them

It’s:

• people speaking a different language around them
• people eating a sandwich on public transport when they wouldn’t choose to eat on public transport and them being able to (gasp!) SEE that person eating
• people allowing their children to behave differently from how they allow their children to behave differently
• people dressing differently

Etc etc

It must be such a painful way to live, being so constantly affronted by the fact other people do life differently. It’s a severe affliction of tolerance that must make it quite hard to leave the house sometimes.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Autumndays123 yes, at four years old. Why not? What better age is there to learn a language?

And yes, I’ve got several multi-lingual kids in my class. If they were alienating themselves from their peers i would express concern to their parents.

What other punishments did you daughter get?[/quote]
I'd like to draw everyone's attention to this post please. Here we have a Welsh teacher who if she caught two international students using their mother tongue on the playground would discuss the 'issue' with the parents.

Have you thought maybe that the two international students in question in this example feel more comfortable talking to each other in their mother tongue? Why are they alienating themselves if they are having a conversation in the mother tongue?

Applying you (shocking) teaching methods to the OPs situation, are we saying OP was alienating herself and should NOT have been speaking in her native language?

Gah! I mean,

Children were expected to speak English at all times and punished for speaking WELSH in schools in Wales.