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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think seclusion is a ridiculous behaviour management policy?

187 replies

doggieflooflove · 24/11/2021 22:29

Now I know In some circumstances it's necessary, but as a general behaviour management tool it's awful.
DS is in yr7. He unfortunately had his first experience of seclusion today after being involved in an incident last week. No fights, malicious behaviour etc, just some silliness that went too far. Now I totally accept that he should be sanctioned and take his punishment.
But a whole day in a room with just a work sheet to fill in, missing 7 lessons including a graded test?
Why not just send them to the seclusion room at breaks/ for lunch for example? For DS, it's not part or a pattern of behaviour or an escalation. So a whole day of education missed for what?
Yes of course I'm hoping it will help him realise what is not acceptable behaviour so will behave better in future.
But really? Surely there's a better way than this unless its the only option left?
Help me accept this is the way it is at secondary please!

OP posts:
dancinfeet · 26/11/2021 08:25

Kids who are being silly are often playing to an audience (of their peers). Taking the audience away seems like a suitable punishment to me, I don’t agree with putting kids in seclusion for their parents not being able to afford immediate replacements for items like broken school shoes I do not agree with on the other hand.

Pyewackect · 26/11/2021 08:29

Well , hopefully, he’ll learn not to do whatever he did again.

user3876483 · 26/11/2021 08:29

@MichelleScarn

So according to DS, and the teacher that spoke to me, he was part of a group that did a "bundle" in the playground I.have no idea what that is so looked it up, urban dictionary says 'a bag of heroin' Shock Am assuming not!
Lmao!! Love this.

I think it's when a group all jump on top of one person

MoreAloneTime · 26/11/2021 08:56

Is the real reason for these rooms that schools have to take on pupils they can't cope with but there isn't any other sort of provision for them?

Plumbear2 · 26/11/2021 09:27

Isolation is perfect and sends to right message. For far to long in primary school stickers/star of tbe week was given to kids who behaved badly and where good for one day. My son saw this and saw tbe injustice in this when he was always well behaved and always worked hard and always had lessons dispruted by these kids. It's great now he knows these kids will be taken out the classroom. Rewarding them in primary obviously didn't work, they need the reality shock now that these behaviours will not be tolerated. These kids are in high school now, how dare they disrupt the class for everyone ekse.

LolaSmiles · 26/11/2021 09:29

Is the real reason for these rooms that schools have to take on pupils they can't cope with but there isn't any other sort of provision for them?
No, a lot is linked to a change in parental attitudes to behaviour and rules, as well as society attitudes to schools and teachers.

When I was at school, I'd be bothered about a teacher calling my Mum. I'd know that if school had to speak to my Mum, Mum's response would be to ask me what I was playing at and to get on with my work. Now there is a sizable minority of parents who actively undermine the school, think that their child doesn't have to follow any rule that they don't like, and will sit in front of their child and be aggressive, confrontational and outright lie to staff in order to defend their child.

When I was at school we had a simple uniform that was strictly followed. Now schools have to deal with situations where simple things like "no trainers" mean some parents go and spend over £100 on a pair of branded trainers, and then come into school complaining that they're not made of money and can't afford more shoes because school have said that "no trainers" means no trainers. Or they'll tell you their children's skirt was definitely knee length when they left the house in a morning (knee length wasn't our rule BTW because we appreciate girls have different bodies and different leg lengths, we just don't want to see pupils' underwear) when you are all sitting in a room with the student and the skirt quite clearly was never mid thigh, let alone knee length. Why the parent lied to our faces in front of the child is beyond me, but as you can imagine the student knew their parents would always back them. It will comr as no surprise that those students found themselves in isolation at times because parents have told them they don't have to follow rules.

Then add in the minimising of disruptive behaviour (eg my child was given a detention for asking a question vs my child was given a detention for repeatedly talking when told not to, the teacher said if anyone needs help to raise their hand, their child turned round to talk again and after 4 warnings they were removed from class and given a detention). When this happens several times in a day or a pattern emerges, the student has time in isolation because several hundred other children's learning come before one child's desire to disrupt and talk to their friends.

Then add in parents who claim schools can't give their child a detention, they don't consent and their child doesn't have to attend. The child doesn't attend so school move through the policy, and the child goes to isolation.

If a student is in isolation then they are in school, are seen by staff who can check welfare, they've got work to complete, and are continuing with their education. Because of some of the parental attitudes above, a fixed term exclusion would mean a trip to the shops, chilling on their xbox etc, or for some students being in potentially dangerous situations or engaging in behaviour that could put them in trouble with the police.

As with any initiative, it can be used effectively, used ineffectively and needs to be reviewed regularly, but it's a much more complex issue than some of the anti-isolation people would like to present.

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 26/11/2021 09:32

Our inclusion/isolation room usually has about 10 kids in there a day who are having a mental health crisis and can’t cope in the lesson and the mental health team are full to capacity.

Then about 4 kids in there who won’t put on school uniform

2 who have missed multiple detentions

2 for fighting

3 for refusing to go to their lessons

2 missed the PE bus

1 who is self harming on site

HarrietsChariot · 26/11/2021 09:39

When I was at school there was a problem with boys giving other boys "wedgies" on their birthday. (Yanking their underwear upwards is the best way I can describe it.) This was going on for years and dismissed by the teachers and parents as "a bit of silliness" until a new headteacher arrived and several of the people involved were suspended for "aggressive homosexuality". It largely stopped happening after that.

That's the thing with harsh punishments - they are to set an example as much as anything else. If your son's day of isolation means someone isn't seriously injured or worse by a group of young thugs like him, surely that's a good thing? Or would you rather they brought back the cane?

Platax · 26/11/2021 09:41

@OnceuponaRainbow18

Our inclusion/isolation room usually has about 10 kids in there a day who are having a mental health crisis and can’t cope in the lesson and the mental health team are full to capacity.

Then about 4 kids in there who won’t put on school uniform

2 who have missed multiple detentions

2 for fighting

3 for refusing to go to their lessons

2 missed the PE bus

1 who is self harming on site

That's an interesting illustration of the problem: it's a punishment room, but it's being used for the children with mental health issues who may therefore perceive that they are being punished. There are also a number of others who may well have SEN issues: the children who won't put on uniform may have sensory problems, the lesson refusers may well have anxiety, the self-harmer clearly has MH difficulties, those who missed the PE bus may have dyslexia/executive functioning problems, the fighters may have been being bullied, those who have multiple detentions may be acting out due to unmet needs. And of course, some or all may simply be misbehaving children. But let's chuck them all in isolation and give them worksheets, rather than address any problems.
LolaSmiles · 26/11/2021 09:53

Platax
So what do you propose happens in a school where a child cannot be in lessons, needs to be supervised, the mental health team is full and can't be with the child at that point?

Do they force the child into the classroom?
Do they leave a child unsupervised?
Do they wave a magic wand and find a spare member of staff for every child who might need someone (because believe me even schools like mine with an amazing SEN base, a team of pastoral staff trained in mental health, an on site counsellor and a team of mentors don't have this magic wand and spare staff)?

Because in all seriousness, for all your criticisms of isolation you don't seem to have explained how much disruption you think hundreds of students should have to experience in order to keep people in the classroom, or how much verbal abuse teachers should have to put up with in order to keep everyone in the classroom, how much victims of bullying should have to be around the perpetrators in order to keep everyone in the classroom, and now you're objecting to children who need space away from the classroom being appropriately supervised by a member of staff and making flippant comments about nobody delaung with the issues when another poster has quote clearly said the mental health team is full.

It's quite clear you have absolutely zero interest in realising that behaviour in schools is complicated because you're only interested in 'isolation is awful' black and white thinking.

Sherrystrull · 26/11/2021 09:53

@Platax

No one is suggesting these problems aren't addressed. But they cannot be addressed by a teacher standing infront of 30 children trying to get through a curriculum.

There is not enough money for support. It breaks my heart every day that I cannot do more for the children in my care but I cannot split myself up anymore and the support has to be prioritised. It's shit for everyone.

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 26/11/2021 11:37

@Platax

Please don’t think he’s students aren’t being helped; they really are but it’s sometimes impossible to at the very moment of distress.

The students in their with mental health crisis are kept at a separate end to the ones in there for behaviour and they are the same 10 kids a day so they do know they aren’t there for behaviour. Also the ones in there for behaviour are in booths doing work. Mental health needs are usually reading a book/fidget you/mindful colouring/:breathing exercises/ doing their class work from the lesson they needed to leave

The kids with uniform issues in there don’t have sensory issues- usually they won’t remove their nose piercing or have dyed their hair bright pink, wearing fake nails, wearing red trousers when should be in black- that kind of thing.

Those that miss the PE bus are usually kids who don’t want to do PE- I agree this needs to be addressed- are they self conscious getting changes etc

drpaddington · 26/11/2021 17:29

This is appalling, are you sure that they lock the fire escapes ?

It was mentioned on the school Facebook parents group, lots of parents asked their children and they all said yes they're locked and the teacher has to use a key card to open them in the same way as the internal door. So not locked as in can't be used at all, but can only be opened by someone with a key card.

doggieflooflove · 26/11/2021 18:12

@drpaddington

This is appalling, are you sure that they lock the fire escapes ?

It was mentioned on the school Facebook parents group, lots of parents asked their children and they all said yes they're locked and the teacher has to use a key card to open them in the same way as the internal door. So not locked as in can't be used at all, but can only be opened by someone with a key card.

I imagine it works on an internal warning system, so that if the fire alarm is activated the doors will open / unlock automatically, much like the fire doors that are held open magnetically but the close automatically when the fire alarm goes off.
OP posts:
BoredZelda · 26/11/2021 19:21

It was mentioned on the school Facebook parents group, lots of parents asked their children and they all said yes they're locked and the teacher has to use a key card to open them in the same way as the internal door. So not locked as in can't be used at all, but can only be opened by someone with a key card.

Important to note, a fire escape or fire door cannot legally be locked, unless linked to a building management system which will auto unlock these doors in the event of the fire alarm sounding.

esloquehay · 26/11/2021 19:40

Were the other kids involved in the bundle sent to seclusion as well?

oviraptor21 · 26/11/2021 22:34

Not in the least difficult - if anything, it's easier to organise in a secondary school where you have more staff and space, and frequently have staff with specific responsibility for behaviour. The school just has to arrange a detention room for each day's miscreants, and a rota for staff to cover it.

Have fun wasting lots of time getting the miscreants to turn up each break time for a week.

Branleuse · 26/11/2021 22:38

I dont think either detention or isolation work great as punishments, but what else do teachers have? Not allowed to throw board rubbers at them anymore or whack their knuckles with a ruler.
It is hard for year 7s when they get this for the first time

JustLyra · 26/11/2021 23:54

I his defence, the child who bundled had initiated one on another child first. Not saying it's right or acceptable but I do know (from the teacher) that was the case. No one has come out of this well!

So there were two serious incidents in a short space of time - that'll be why the school cracked down hard and fast on those involved.

One of my children's best friends ended up with two broken wrists and stitches in their head after one of these 'bundles'. Another child in the same incident had bruised ribs.

They're not jolly japes - they're really bloody dangerous.

SandraOhh · 27/11/2021 00:28

Why should other children miss out on learning because of your child? Seclusion/isolation are used in lots of schools for this very reason.

Platax · 27/11/2021 07:39

@SandraOhh

Why should other children miss out on learning because of your child? Seclusion/isolation are used in lots of schools for this very reason.
No-one was missing out on learning because of OP's child. The incident leading to this was in the playground.
RoseAndRose · 27/11/2021 08:13

One day in internal detention is not going to wreck his education.

Indeed, if it stops him from further physical bullying that risks real harm to the person picked on who is at the bottom) it might even help it in the long run. Because he might not then need repeated sanctions for threatening behaviour

LolaSmiles · 27/11/2021 08:34

No-one was missing out on learning because of OP's child. The incident leading to this was in the playground

Children have the right to be safe on the school site at break and lunch.
These bundles are dangerous and are a harm risk.

Why should children feel unsafe in school and on edge in case others pile on them for a laugh?

Skyll · 27/11/2021 08:39

I’m sorry but you’re minimising what your son did.

I hope he has learnt from this.

Somebodylikeyew · 27/11/2021 09:04

Your son was involved in a physical bullying incident.

The punishment sounds ENTIRELY reasonable to me, and I’d be grateful to the school for taking such a strong position.