AIBU to think seclusion is a ridiculous behaviour management policy?

[doggieflooflove]

Now I know In some circumstances it's necessary, but as a general behaviour management tool it's awful.
DS is in yr7. He unfortunately had his first experience of seclusion today after being involved in an incident last week. No fights, malicious behaviour etc, just some silliness that went too far. Now I totally accept that he should be sanctioned and take his punishment.
But a whole day in a room with just a work sheet to fill in, missing 7 lessons including a graded test?
Why not just send them to the seclusion room at breaks/ for lunch for example? For DS, it's not part or a pattern of behaviour or an escalation. So a whole day of education missed for what?
Yes of course I'm hoping it will help him realise what is not acceptable behaviour so will behave better in future.
But really? Surely there's a better way than this unless its the only option left?
Help me accept this is the way it is at secondary please!

My school moved seclusion room to a room with computers this year precisely so students in there can join their lessons from Teams and don't miss learning. Staff are sent the list of those booked into seclusion first thing so they can send out Teams links to their students and any who join the room during the day, an email is sent direct to their teachers asking for links for rest of the day. It isn't the same as being in the lesson in person, but it's definitely better than them missing learning. Perhaps suggest this to your school OP? If the pandemic showed us anything in education it's that technology can and should be used to prevent students unnecessarily missing lessons wherever possible.

Seclusion works for the majority. Many pupils only need the threat of seclusion to help them maintain their behaviour. Some pupils may need to go once or twice before they realise it’s not worth messing around.

From experience, those who have parents backing the school up, tend to get the message a little quicker. When parents disagree with a school on behaviour management, pupils very quickly get the message that they can behave badly at school because their adults at home disagree with their teachers.

Seclusion cannot be good for pupils who end up there regularly, whether because of SEN or challenging behaviours. However, I assume that at a point a child is frequently removed from class, the school’s behaviour team would then look at how to further support the pupil to obtain their education.

@MrsLargeEmbodied

Why do you think it's ok to throw a pencil in class? It's disruptive and dangerous and silly.

To be honest I'm glad it's being used for people that persistently disrupt lessons. I do think it makes sense to have a sliding scale of punishment though.

As for bundles, best stick to doing them when there are no teachers around in my experience.

The British Psychological Society is clear that use of isolation rooms as punishment should be banned - www.bps.org.uk/news-and-policy/use-isolation-booths-schools-should-be-banned-says-british-psychological-society

[quote Sherrystrull]@MrsLargeEmbodied

Why do you think it's ok to throw a pencil in class? It's disruptive and dangerous and silly. [/quote]
She didn't say it was OK. She just indicated that it was daft to describe it as throwing equipment around. And there's a good case for saying it's less dangerous that subjecting children to potential psychological damage by isolating them for hours on end.

Interesting article here on the legalities

DS's school use isolation for lots of things- from violence and rudeness to talking, not completing homework, or arriving to a lesson without all the correct uniform and equipment. It doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent because they know they can be sent for very minor things- it loses any impact.

The idea is to make sure those left in class can carry on learning without disruptions. Although that doesn't really make sense when the child's 'crime' isn't always disruptive 🤷🏻‍♀️

Those in isolation are occasionally set work but not often. Some staff members make them just sit there and do nothing at all, others might let them read a book or use a laptop. (My son watched YouTube last time he was sent to isolation 🤦‍♀️) They're locked in, even the fire exit is locked. They have to complete 6 full lessons, plus any breaks, plus an hour after school.

I think they had no choice but to come down hard because of how dangerous it was. I don't think isolation is a good tool because it puts those with bad behaviour further behind which may be a cycle - child is behind, is disruptive because they feel they can't do the work, is isolated and given a worksheet so misses all teacher input and TA support, child falls further behind, child is disruptive in class because they can't do the work....and so on. As they weren't disrupting class or distracting others in this instance (in which case isolation might be required for the benefit of the rest of the class) I think detentions would have been more appropriate.

Those in isolation are occasionally set work but not often. Some staff members make them just sit there and do nothing at all, others might let them read a book or use a laptop. (My son watched YouTube last time he was sent to isolation 🤦‍♀️) They're locked in, even the fire exit is locked. They have to complete 6 full lessons, plus any breaks, plus an hour after school.

This is appalling, are you sure that they lock the fire escapes ?

I'm a teacher and I'm often a bit baffled why some MNers get so fraught about kids being put in the inclusion room. Have you ever been in one? It's a normal room. It's not like being in solitary confinement in a prison fgs. There is a teacher in there for starters, and usually other kids (sometimes in separate booths, but still in the same room), so the child is not actually isolated. There is the audible usual hustle and bustle of school going on outside, the door is usually open. Work is set (so kids aren't 'missing a day of education').

Some kids deliberately misbehave because they fancy chilling out in the inclusion room instead of being in lessons. It's true that the more generally well-behaved kids tend to take being put in inclusion more seriously, but that is kind of the whole point. In any case, it's one day out of the gazillions of school days he'll have. It really won't do him any harm.

They're locked in, even the fire exit is locked

Really? I think that's very unusual tbh. I've been in multiple inclusion rooms and they've never even been closed, never mind locked!

But it’s clearly not like this in all schools, Jane you read drpaddingtons description. That is wholly unacceptable

Not sure who Jane is, that should read have

I came across a case where a school was regularly sending a child with ASD to isolation, where he largely left unsupervised and was told to produce spreadsheets on a computer. It rebounded on them when Ofsted turned up, had a look at what he was doing and discovered he'd hacked into the school's system and was having a good time reading the staff's emails and changing all his records.

You keep saying that to lose a day of education is unfair.

If a child were injured and had to stay home from being bundled do you think that would be fair? I think you need to suck it up, at the very least, your son will keep away from bundles and not join in again. Lesson learnt.

@lazylinguist

I'm a teacher and I'm often a bit baffled why some MNers get so fraught about kids being put in the inclusion room. Have you ever been in one? It's a normal room. It's not like being in solitary confinement in a prison fgs. There is a teacher in there for starters, and usually other kids (sometimes in separate booths, but still in the same room), so the child is not actually isolated. There is the audible usual hustle and bustle of school going on outside, the door is usually open. Work is set (so kids aren't 'missing a day of education').

Some kids deliberately misbehave because they fancy chilling out in the inclusion room instead of being in lessons. It's true that the more generally well-behaved kids tend to take being put in inclusion more seriously, but that is kind of the whole point. In any case, it's one day out of the gazillions of school days he'll have. It really won't do him any harm.

You are making the mistake of assuming that all isolation rooms are the same. Some really impose sensory deprivation - the child is made to sit facing blank walls with nothing to do and not allowed to turn around. It can have very serious consequences, as in the case where it was found to be being used as an opportunity for abuse, and as in this case - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-47817000.

And since when did supplying worksheets amount to education? If teaching was that easy, we wouldn't need schools.

Its around 2,260 school days that children have, not "gazillions". If missing one school day is so trivial, why bother with fining parents if they cause a child to miss a day?

If you want your kid to go to a school where teachers teach and kids make progress you need to stop minimising crap behaviour. Calling a bundle silly is minimising. Kids throwing equipment and calling out and talking while the teacher is teaching are all symptomatic of poor learning behaviour and poor outcomes. Sitting around deciding for yourself whether the punishment is tailored to his needs or personality is missing the point. He broke rules he gets a sanction which impacts on him and to some degree you as you are meant to have some influence on him. Most parents think sanctions are great for other peoples kids. To the poster who says her dd needs nurturing how would a teacher nurture a kid who is passing about while trying to educate 25 other kids? Seriously the reason why schools are finally getting serious about removing kids from lessons is to try and reassert the notion that schools are about education and qualifications.

Sorry, OP, you do sound a bit precious.

It’s not as if he’s been caned!

@cansu to be fair to the OP she seems to have taken a very firm line with her ds, it was the teacher who called the behaviour ‘silly’ .

At my school kids want to try send to the isolation room 😱

Teachers can’t smack, shout, or send children to stand in the corridor with their face to the wall. Seclusion is one of the feel disciplinary tools they have. In nearly all cases, parents need to back the school, and help enforce school discipline at home. Trouble at school should mean trouble at home. Too often, parents don’t want their child to face consequences, and the results can be heartbreaking.

@doggieflooflove

Now that youve explained what it was, I agree with you seclusion is not appropriate. However, depending on the school's behaviour policy on how tonrespond to violence in the playground, it may be proportionate. What you're describing is a physical assault by a group of young men on a single person. Yes it was at school, and yes nothing bad happened... But it could have.

The behaviour policy in my sons schook for physical violence woukd probably see those involved miss the reat of that day, and then ned to engage in restirative work during their break times fir the rest of the week... Which would pribably look like individual and group discussions about what happened , why they got involved, how they could make different choices next time, and why it is being treated as a serious incident due to what could have happened.

You keep saying that to lose a day of education is unfair.

If a child were injured and had to stay home from being bundled do you think that would be fair? I think you need to suck it up, at the very least, your son will keep away from bundles and not join in again. Lesson learnt.
You don't understand. Schools who think children should be safe at school and able to learn are the worst. It's absolutely preferable to brush off pile ons in the playground, allow endless warnings and disruption to everyone's education and generally prioritise the students who seek to get involved in physical altercations, be verbally abusive to staff, and systematically disrupt the learning of hundreds of students rather than have students working on individual desks in a study room supervised by a member of staff.

There was a whole campaign around Ban the Booths than ended up being hilarious to follow because it went something like this:
BtB: Ban the Booths!!
Opponents: what's wrong with study rooms with individual study desks with dividers
BtB: we aren't talking about that. We are talking about deep confinement booths... sensory deprivation...
Opponents: we've done a quick search for these deep confinement booths and nothing comes up. Do you mean individual desks with dividers between them so that students aren't distracted by each other? What's your problem with students in a study room on individual desks working through work?
BtB: but this school did something we didn't like so all booths should be banned...
Opponents: of course any poor practice should be investigated, but why are you trying to ban students from working on individual desks in a study room?
BtB: ... silence... (campaign goes quiet).

Many people involved in that movement are the same people who seem to think restorative conversations where perpetrators can explain to their victims why they've bullied and targed and assaulted them is the solution and not at all open to victim blaming in a way that centres the perpetrators, and that if a student is disrupting learning for everyone then they need a hot chocolate with a senior member of staff where they can slag the teacher off.

@Platax

Pencils are equipment. They are needed to access the lesson. I'm not sure why you are saying they aren't.

And quite honestly a sharp pencil being lobbed around the room is dangerous and encourages others to throw other things. Teachers need to think about the safety of all children.