Page 15 | To ask you to see who girl guides support.

RedCarpetRebellion · 2021-11-23T23:46:09+00:00

[[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10235539/amp/Girlguides-launch-probe-trans-Commissioner-58-saucy-dominatrix-style-picture.html]] A woman sacked for speaking up for girls safety was replaced by this person. Girl guides are not safe for girls. AIBU?

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 11:47

[quote DaphneDeloresMoorhead]@Eggybrains I had to supply my certificate so unless this has changed since I left they do require it. But that was a while ago, I left in 2019[/quote]
Absolutely. You should have had to get a disclosure (a new one) to volunteer. But you had a competent and diligent commissioner, I suspect.

This responsibility, which is important, and they’ve been told isn’t always happening, should not be left up to volunteers unless there is a mechanism for ensuring that they fulfil their role in that regard.

averylongtimeago · 26/11/2021 12:22

Girlguiding leaders and volunteers are all dbs checked, and interviewed as well as providing 2 referees.
The process is set out here:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/recruitment-and-vetting-policy/recruitment-procedures/

DBS checks have to be renewed regularly (had mine re-done fairly recently).

When your renewal is due, it is flagged up on Go (guide online management thing).

For residentials, details of all adults attending has to be supplied and approved by the relevant advisor. You have to supply the membership number of each adult- the advisor then has to check their dbs is up to date- we have had a volunteer parent refused permission to attend as their dbs check wasn't back in time.

All leaders also have to have regular safeguarding training- again flagged up on Go if it's out of date and you won't be allowed to continue as a leader or go on residential trips
unless you have done the updated training.

I am as cross as anyone about the GG trans policy, but please don't run away with the idea that leaders do no training or are not doing regular DBS checks.

Original poster

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:28

This isn’t about DBS checks.

DBS doesn’t check social media.

This is about GG promoting someone whose two PUBLIC social media accounts contain many photos of themselves that break the GG social media policy, many pornographic photos and comments and ones that glamourise guns.

GG should have a policy to check public social media accounts prior to job offers, as they have a social media policy for those employees to follow. They either don’t do due diligence in this respect or they intentionally waved the breech of their own policy.

GG policies on camp linked above encourage leaders to hand out condoms to 13 years and above and encourage them to keep this secret from the parents if the child asks them to.

These are GG policies/failure to follow policy. This isn’t about DBS.

OP posts:

Original poster

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:29

And it’s a red herring to keep bringing it up like this. Rtft and stop detailing it.

OP posts:

Theeyeballsinthesky · 26/11/2021 12:41

I knew we had discussed the impact of having a gender recognition certification (GRC) on DBS

It effectively renders it meaningless unless the person volunteers their previous identify

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3690840-Reply-from-Home-Office-re-DBS-and-GRC?msgid=90035635

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/11/2021 12:41

averylongtimeago
I'm not questioning whether the guides have DBS checks or safeguarding training - I know they do. What I'm amazed at is that there is no formal monitoring of this by an external body. Most services that work with children are externally assessed - like Ofsted or the CQC. I'm just questioning why, given the nature of the GG - residentials and wanting untrained adults to discuss sex and sexuality, hand out contraception and keep secrets from parents - that nobody is quality assuring what is being done.
Safeguarding children is the priority. Yet as an outsider I can see numerous incidents where safeguarding is being eased.
I really feel for committed guiders being let down by an organisation in thrall to the trans lobby rather than prioritising the needs of girls. It's tragic.

Original poster

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:51

@MrsOvertonsWindow

WTSC section 57-62 relate to safeguarding responsibilities of charity/voluntary organisations.

58 says it’s the charity commission who are the regulator as they have a responsibility to ensure charities don’t cause harm.

Maybe we need to be complaining to them and quoting WTSC relevant sections at them?

I believe they expect a complaint about charity not fulfilling charitable aims to go through the charities complaints procedure first, before to them if that fails. I don’t know if that’s true of safeguarding concerns though. I would have thought, the same way we can go straight to ofsted with safeguarding concerns, that safeguarding complaints can by pass this process. But haven’t checked, it’s on my to do list once I get some sleep some day….

OP posts:

Zotter · 26/11/2021 13:30

@Bosky, hear you, all good points, thank you.

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 15:24

@averylongtimeago

Girlguiding leaders and volunteers are all dbs checked, and interviewed as well as providing 2 referees. The process is set out here:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/recruitment-and-vetting-policy/recruitment-procedures/

DBS checks have to be renewed regularly (had mine re-done fairly recently).

When your renewal is due, it is flagged up on Go (guide online management thing).

For residentials, details of all adults attending has to be supplied and approved by the relevant advisor. You have to supply the membership number of each adult- the advisor then has to check their dbs is up to date- we have had a volunteer parent refused permission to attend as their dbs check wasn't back in time.

All leaders also have to have regular safeguarding training- again flagged up on Go if it's out of date and you won't be allowed to continue as a leader or go on residential trips
unless you have done the updated training.

I am as cross as anyone about the GG trans policy, but please don't run away with the idea that leaders do no training or are not doing regular DBS checks.

So can you explain why that has not happened, repeatedly in our area?

We got an email saying all volunteers needed a disclosure and a certain level of “safe space” training so could everyone please just sort themselves out.

I’m glad it works well in your area, @averylongtimeago, but it doesn’t everywhere, and when it doesn’t work, it doesn’t appear that anything is done to actually put things right.

I’ve got plenty of evidence to show this doesn’t always happen as you describe.

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 15:25

Sorry, second para graph should have said that they said volunteers needed this, but it was unsustainable for anyone to check up on them, so please can we all just sort ourselves out.

You’re right re GO and safe space, but all it does is send emails. It doesn’t mean any action is taken by anyone.

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 15:29

For clarity @averylongtimeago I know volunteers who have volunteered without a disclosure, references or interview. They haven’t even been actioned, let alone obtained.

I raised this as an issue and I got told to shut up and not tell the parents. It wasn’t rectified.

Beamur · 26/11/2021 15:33

Eggybrains
It sounds dangerously dysfunctional in your area.
It is onerous for volunteers, but the process Avery describes is what should be happening. If it's not I would escalate it, if something goes wrong, this will be leaving GG wide open for criticism, reputational damage and the potential for real harm for members - both the children and the adults.

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 15:38

@Beamur

Eggybrains It sounds dangerously dysfunctional in your area. It is onerous for volunteers, but the process Avery describes is what should be happening. If it's not I would escalate it, if something goes wrong, this will be leaving GG wide open for criticism, reputational damage and the potential for real harm for members - both the children and the adults.

I did escalate it.

They’ve still not investigated and have told me to shut up and not tell parents.

I feel terrible about the parents not knowing what a shit show it is.

DrSbaitso · 26/11/2021 16:10

Eggybrains, would you consider going to the press with your evidence? They could protect your identity.

averylongtimeago · 26/11/2021 16:22

@Eggybrains that sounds dreadful- especially as when you reported this nothing was done.
I posted the procedure to show what should happen- you have highlighted how it can be ignored.

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 16:37

@DrSbaitso

Eggybrains, would you consider going to the press with your evidence? They could protect your identity.

Yes

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 18:03

That sounds incredibly concerning Eggy. As a parent of a recent GG and a helper, I am horrified to know that shortcuts have been taken. I am very appreciative of leaders such as you, who take a stand to do the right thing.

ShinyHappyPoster · 26/11/2021 19:39

@Eggybrains did you contact CHQ in writing with your concerns? Volunteers may be lax - although I never saw any laxness around DBS etc - but paid staff shouldn't be.

Eggybrains · 26/11/2021 19:49

[quote ShinyHappyPoster]@Eggybrains did you contact CHQ in writing with your concerns? Volunteers may be lax - although I never saw any laxness around DBS etc - but paid staff shouldn't be.[/quote]
Yes, I did.

They've not done anything. I'm reluctant to tell you how long ago I raised it as it may identify me if noone else raised it around that time, but it's been a long, long, long time, and they've done nothing, except tell me not to tell parents.

It's the responsibility of volunteers (DC etc) to send of disclosures and ask volunteers to complete them. HQ are responsible for processing once they're filled in, but if local volunteers don't fill in the forms, HQ have nothing to process. In my view something this important shouldn't be left up to volunteers with variable levels of knowledge, skill, training, understanding of why this is important and attitudes towards disclosures. Something this important should be put in the hands of a few dedicated members of staff who process all vetting for new volunteers, and ensure existing volunteers documentation is kept up to date too.

samholborn · 26/11/2021 20:11

Hilariously, it seems their complaints email address is down. I wonder if the mailbox is full?

Terfydactyl · 26/11/2021 21:50

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Didn’t we discuss on FWR that if someone has a GRC that wipes out their former identity re seeing CRB useless??

I might be misremembering but I’m sure it was discussed at length

Yes the much missed lang I think said theres a huge hole in the DBS process. If a person has changed name, they have to let DBS know. If they dont then what happens?

Bosky · 28/11/2021 05:58

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Didn’t we discuss on FWR that if someone has a GRC that wipes out their former identity re seeing CRB useless??

I might be misremembering but I’m sure it was discussed at length

No, that's not how it works - thankfully!

DBS Sensitive applications

Transgender applicants are protected in legislation and are not obliged to include details indicating a previous gender in their application form.

The DBS has a process in place which allows any details indicating a previous gender to be checked without being disclosed on the completed certificate.

They are, however, required by law to provide all name details to the DBS in their current and any previous identity. Deliberately withholding this information may be an attempt to prevent conviction information being revealed and is an offence.

Scroll right down this DBS page to see the section on "Sensitive applications":

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/disclosure-and-barring-service

============

DBS Guidance

Transgender applications

Guidance and information regarding the sensitive applications route for transgender applicants.

The Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) offers a confidential checking service for transgender applicants in accordance with the Gender Recognition Act 2004. This is known as the sensitive applications route, and is available for all levels of DBS check - basic, standard and enhanced.

The sensitive applications route gives transgender applicants the choice not to have any gender or name information disclosed on their DBS certificate, that could reveal their previous identity.

So the only difference with people who have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) is that, for privacy reasons, any issues that apply under a pre-GRC name can be listed under the current name and “gender”, if the person with a GRC requests this.

All of those issues would still be listed on the DBS disclosure, none would be omitted. The only information not disclosed, if requested by the GRC-holder, would be the pre-GRC name and the actual sex of the person.

This does create a loophole but not the one suggested.

When a previous name is undisclosed this could present a barrier to accessing “informal intelligence”. To that extent, the current DBS system for people with a GRC does not deal with all of the intelligence failures that the recommendations in the Bichard Inquiry set out to address, ie. in the wake of the Soham Murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by Ian Huntley.

www.virtual-college.co.uk/resources/public-inquiry-holly-wells-jessica-chapman

DBS checks can only result in disclosure of information that is known to the DBS. If incidents have not been reported they will not be known to the Police and so to the DBS.

For example, some organisations have an "anti-punitive and anti-carceral" ethos and prefer to deal with incidents "in house", eg. by "restorative justice". Others simply cover them up.

Nevertheless, knowledge of the incidents and the names of alleged perpetrators may be common knowledge within the organisation or the sector. Failure to list a previous name on a DBS disclosure can present a safe-guarding issue in these circumstances.

A recent example of an "anti-punitive and anti-carceral" approach is in the training given to Oxfam staff in the UK, which said that women who report rape or sexual assault to the police promote "racism" and "white supremacy":

"Oxfam training guide blames ‘privileged white women’ over root causes of sexual violence"
The Telegraph, 9 June 2021

Extracts

Oxfam has produced guidance which states that: “Mainstream feminism centres on privileged white women and demands that ‘bad men’ be fired or imprisoned”.

Accompanied by a cartoon of a crying white woman, it adds that this “legitimises criminal punishment, harming black and other marginalised people”.

"Learning About Trans Rights and Inclusion" was drawn up in 2020, whilst Oxfam was still reeling from sexual exploitation scandals in Haiti and Chad.

The charity suffered further blows in April this year, when a female aid worker quit alleging that there was a “toxic culture” and her sexual harassment complaint had been ignored,

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211029194646/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/09/oxfam-training-guide-blames-privileged-white-women-root-causes/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20211029194646/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/09/oxfam-training-guide-blames-privileged-white-women-root-causes/

Other examples of organisations with “anti-punitive, anti-carceral” policies that prefer in-house “restorative justice” approaches include "Action for Trans Health" and "Edinburgh Trans Health".

This account illustrates how it is possible for individuals with a long history of allegations of sexual misconduct to benefit from well-meaning people, policies and organisations that do not prioritise safeguarding, in this case of vulnerable young adults:

<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20210806210146/www.sarahmcculloch.com/statement-jess-bradley/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210806210146/www.sarahmcculloch.com/statement-jess-bradley/